Abhijit Joshi is a founding partner of Veritas Legal, Advocates and Solicitors, and is also a qualified member of the Law Society of England and Wales. Abhijit graduated in Commerce and qualified in law from Mumbai University. Over the course of his career he has worked at Amarchand Mangaldas, Dua Associates and AZB Partners. In this interview he talks to us about:

• How he selected law and his early career.
• Criteria for selection of associates while recruiting.
• His formative years as a lawyer and his time at Amarchand and AZB.
• Veritas Legal and its rapid expansion as well as advice for our readers.

How did you decide to pursue law as a career option? Were there other lawyers in your family?

My father passed away very young and what is not untypical of Indian families all our properties went into disputes. As a result at a very young age (school days) unfortunately I had to interact with lawyers along with my mother. It probably had a counter effect, i.e. me not wanting to take up law! So while I studied law, I never intended to become a lawyer. After trying my hand at a few things, I realized that the unplanned training I got during my childhood, had probably made me more attuned towards the profession and ultimately I decided to pursue it as a career. There is no one in my family who was ever a lawyer and I was told that this might be a serious impediment. Needless to say, I realized that if you have merit and are willing to work hard, there are no real impediments.

Tell us about your schooling and college life before you graduated. Any fond memories or anecdotes that spring to mind that you would like to share with us?

School days were great, but at the age of nine I lost one of my parents. It had an effect, but I coped well. I then went to Sydenham College for Commerce which was then a premier institution. There are lots of fond memories. I excelled at academics, I excelled at extra-curricular activities, I became the youngest chairperson of the Students Union. I found the love of my life, my wife. I probably learnt my early lessons on the importance of networking at the college.

Were you always interested in corporate work? Did you have other areas of law that interested you? How did you ultimately choose your field of work?

Corporate work has a buzz and I guess a lot of young minds would like to be associated with it. Even today, I see the same trend. I had planned nothing. I had applied to Mr. R. A. Shah at Crawford Bayley as he was the pioneer of international corporate work in those days. I was not accepted. I applied at AmarchandMangaldas and they were kind enough to take a risk on me. There were 5 to 6 lawyers in their Mumbai office in those days other than the family. I quickly realized that destiny had made the right choice for me.Amarchand was at the cutting edge of India’s economic evolution and I got to work on many of the firsts. For example, the first Euro issue, the first Cola war , etc. The firm’s orientation was towards corporate law and I eventually got interested in it and continue even today.

How important is CGPA for a law student? While hiring, are you primarily looking at the academic record of the candidate or other areas like extra-curricular activities too?

This is a good question. When you are judging a candidate by her resume, academics is going to form a lopsided part of consideration. However, I believe that in addition to academics other aspects of the personality of the candidate is what will give him/her the winning edge. I would assume that everyone is going to be hardworking, but it is important to know who has the “spark”. Personal interviews go a long way in getting a “gut” on the candidate. After having recruited for many, many years, it somehow comes to you within the first 5 minutes of the interview whether there is potential or not. But often this has not been fair to the candidate and this has to be validated by more scrutiny. For example, when you see extra-curricular activities, you see whether the candidate has all-round development. I would typically see what games the candidate has played. Is he a cricketer or is he a tennis player? In other words has he/she excelled at team games or individual games, is he/she a team player or a solo player.These are only aides, but I would admit that in a situation where there is not much to judge from, academics will have a very heavy weightage.

You started your career at Amarchand Mangaldas and moved on to Dua before joining AZB. How did your initial years in practice shape your outlook?

My initial years shaped me. My senior Mr. Cyril Shroff has left a deep impression on my work and my style of work as that is what I observed very keenly and closely during my formative years.I remember he once told me to never close the right side of a chart when you are developing options because mentally when you close it, you will feel there are no other options and you will start thinking within the box. He taught me how sound knowledge of law needs to be applied with innovation in thinking. The initial years have left an imprint on me.

You have been associated with AZB for a number of years – you started as one of their first partners before being made CEO of AZB. How do you look back on your time at AZB?

AZB holds a special place in my life and career. I got to observe another giant, Zia Mody. Both at Amarchand and AZB , I was around in their initial days of evolution and therefore I had the privilege of working very closely with both Mr. Cyril Shroff and Ms. Zia Mody. We were around 11 to 15 people when I joined AZB (then known as CZM) and the sheer joy of growth and the adrenaline was unparalleled. Working with Zia and Bahram was delightful as not onlywere they good lawyers, but also great human beings. I look at AZB very fondly. It has shaped me.

Less than a year ago, you left a comfortable job to start out on your own at Veritas Legal. What prompted this move and what role do you envisage for yourself at Veritas Legal?

I can only quote Robert Frost as an answer to this question. “The woods are lovely, dark and deep, but I have promises to keep and miles to go before I sleep.” I guess I enjoy the growth phase. I enjoy constructing. Both at Amarchand and AZB, I really enjoyed that portion of the journey. In the last decade of my career I guess I wanted to venture out and feel the excitement once again. My decision has nothing to do with any grievances about the past.It was all about the possibilities of the future. My role at Veritas Legal is dynamic at this stage. However, I do not intend to be around forever. Keeping this in mind, I did not use my name or surname in the firm name.This should never be an issue for senior talent aggregation. We have got very experienced resources. In time, I am sure they will step up and I will ease out. But before that, I would like to implement a lot of what I have learnt- what should be done and equally what should not be done. There are a lot of ideas that float in my mind. A lot of initiatives that I could not take up earlier. I intend to live each one of them. I see cultural integrity as a core part of the value system. I see value systems as the only cohesion at work place. I see that only these values will allow resources to flourish and bring excellence at their work. I hope that these will stay central to our growth and we will make all endeavors to see that these are not compromised at the altar of growth or success.

How did large corporate deals come your way and what do you feel for your firm’s success?

(In its relatively short period in existence, Veritas Legal has already completed around 27 transactions in the field of M&A and private equity. These include transactions for Recipharm in the acquisition of Nitin Lifesciences which is the second largest deal in India in the injectable space and Evonik acquisition of Monarch Catalyst.)

We have more than 200 filings in various judicial fora. These have come from various sources and from all directions. I am more than pleased at the firm’s performance in the first year. But I take cognizance that the 2^nd year will be more challenging than the first. We are determined to work hard and stay focused on our beliefs and hopefully better times will follow.

Do you think the firm might perhaps be growing too fast or is hiring based on the amount of work you have to handle?

(From having started with just two members, the firm has grown in strength to over 35 people with 25 lawyers in such a short period of time.)

Yes, I think we have grown faster than we would have liked. However, we have not gone out and recruited anyone. The resources have been referred to us and we have recruited selectively. As matters kept coming, we kept increasing our strength to ensure that there is no burn in the system. Therefore, the growth is more a reflection of the thrust of the economy as opposed to a planned one. In fact, we have no numbers in mind. We have only quality in mind and whatever number is necessary to support the quality will be achieved.

What do you expect from first year associates or interns from law school who wish to work for your firm?

I do not have any eligibility criteria for interns. How do I put criteria on a student who is himself/herself discovering life? There are only basic attributes of hard work and inquisition. I love working with curious minds. I guess this is inherent and if the resource has it, it will show.

Where do you see yourself and your firm ten years from now?

Ten years is a long time. However, I hope that we are known for the job we do. We do not necessarily need to do everything, we do not necessarily have to be a size, but we necessarily have to be a happy place to work in and we necessarily have to be excellent at our work. I have a journey in mind with these values. The destination will reveal itself in good time.

You are a member of the Law Society of England & Wales and qualified as a solicitor in England. How does one qualify as a solicitor in England and what advantages do you think it poses?

Degree as such has a limited value. The knowledge you derive in gaining the degree is invaluable. Having a solicitor’s degree from England to my mind has limited value if you are practicing in India. It is not a “must have”, it is “good to have”.

Finally, what is your parting advice for our readers?

When I started my career, someone gave me a quote which went as under “Don’t learn the tricks of the trade – learn the trade”.I do not think that I can summarize my advice any better.

Aditya Shamlal graduated from the National Law School India University in 2008. He has worked as an Associate at Amarchand Mangaldas and thereafter at the Chambers of Raj Panwani. He is at present a Senior Consultant at GameChanger Sports Ventures, a Partner at GameChanger Law Advisors and Managing Editor at gamechangerindia.com. In this interview he shares his insights on:

• Choosing law as a profession
• His time at NLSIU
• Working at GameChanger, India
• Experience in Sports Law

How would you like introduce yourself to our readers who are mostly law aspirants, law students and young lawyers?

I am a graduate of NLSIU, Bangalore, Batch of 2008. I have, during my 7 plus years since graduation, gained experience and worked in various practice areas within the legal industry, such as corporate and commercial law, environmental law, technology law, sports law and dispute resolution. I am an avid sports enthusiast and do regular research and writing within the sports law domain.

Did you always want to be a lawyer? Did you have lawyers in your family or among relatives who motivated you to pursue law?

As a child or even till I was 14-15 I never really thought much about a career and I don’t think I was particularly ambitious either. I was quite content with playing sports with my friends, playing video games and studying when required to. The first profession I seriously thought of was law.

However, I did not have any lawyers in my family or even among distant relatives. No one in my family really knew what being a lawyer meant. I first discussed this with my family in 2001-2002 and their only idea of a lawyer (and consequently mine) was an advocate who practiced in the courts.

What inclined you towards the field of legal education? Can you recall any specific incident that made you choose law as a career?

My favourite subjects in school were English and Social Studies. Our civics course had chapters on the Constitution of India and that first got me interested in the ‘law’. By the time I was 14-15 years old, I had displayed a higher aptitude for English, History, Political Science and Economics over Math and Science. My school at that point of time did not offer arts courses as an option for the 12^th Board examination. I was left only with the options of commerce or science and chose science to ‘keep my options open’.

Sometime in 2002, my English teacher, who herself was an LLB graduate from Delhi University, suggested I consider law as a possible career option, as she felt I had an aptitude for it. This got me thinking about law seriously, and after doing a bit of research on the options available and the exams to be written, I decided to go ahead and write the legal entrance exams.

How would you describe your experience as a student at NLSIU? How instrumental was NLSIU in shaping up your legal career?

NLSIU was a great place to study law. While NLSIU, like every other institution in India, has its own problems and issues, those 5 years completely changed the direction of my life.

I believe NLSIU has been extremely instrumental in shaping the legal career of almost all its graduates and the NLSIU alumni community is now understanding that, and consequently are more invested in the institution than before. NLSIU has churned out leaders in advocacy, law firms, companies, public policy institutions, academia, social work and quite recently in entrepreneurship as well. This would not have been possible without the institution providing a conducive atmosphere for learning. In addition, the institution has also provided us with other building blocks (such as exposure to so many different situations, the ability to build powerful networks, development of communication skills etc.) that have stood us in good stead way after our graduation. Therefore, there is much reason to be grateful to NLSIU!

What were your areas of interest during your graduation? How did you go about developing expertise and knowledge in these areas?

Economics, Company Law, Intellectual Property Law, International Law were the courses I enjoyed the most during college, I would be lying if I said I went around developing any sort of expertise in these areas during my college days, apart from during internships, which necessitated doing reasonably in-depth research with respect to real world circumstances and scenarios.

Most of my extra-curricular activities were centred around sports whether it organisationally or in the form of participation. I played basketball briefly for the university team, and otherwise participated yearly in inter-batch sports activities like basketball, football, tennis and table tennis. I was also on the sports committee for a year.

Tell us about the internships you pursued when at law school. What kind of work did you get to do during internships? Did law school equip you enough for internships?

I did mostly litigation internships with NLSIU Alums in the Supreme Court and Delhi High Court for my first 3 years in law school. In my 4^th and 5^th years I did more corporate internships by interning at law firms and at banks. The education at law school, whether relevant or not specifically with respect to subject matter, in general armed me with the tools I needed to tackle any legal problem thrown at me during my internships.

Right after graduation you joined as an Associate in the New Delhi offices of Amarchand Mangaldas. Tell our readers what was your work profile at this Law firm? What did an average day of work look like?

I joined the erstwhile AMSS, Delhi in 2008 and worked there for a period of 2 years. As a fresh graduate in a large law firm it is sometimes tough to hit the ground running. Often you were put in a practice area you did not understand and it can be quite a challenge coming to grips with the major legal issues and nuances of a particular practice area.

As a junior resource you work profile includes doing all of the ground work in the form of research; preparing first drafts of opinions, legal memos and agreements; conducting due diligence exercises; maintaining files, taking minutes at meetings, assisting your immediate reporting senior associate or your partner in whatever way possible. An average day in Amarchand is quite hectic, you are almost always occupied with most of the tasks I have already mentioned.

Please tell our readers what was the procedure you followed for your applications to the big law firms?

We had a robust recruitment committee during my years in law school, and the big law firms, both Indian and from the UK, were recruiting actively from NLSIU. We routed our job applications through our recruitment committee and some students had already landed jobs through pre-placement offers on the basis of internships.

You have further worked in litigation for about 2 years. Kindly in brief share these experiences with our readers.

After walking into NLSIU in 2003, joining a litigation practice in 2010, was my biggest eye opener. During my time at AMSS, I had the opportunity to work on all kinds of projects, but due to the way large corporate firms are structured, my client or ‘real world’ exposure was fairly limited and junior resources in large firms are generally sheltered and insulated from the big bad world.

Juniors in Litigation, especially outside of the larger firms, have no such protection afforded to them. You are quite literally thrown into the deep end, whether it is drafting, or filing a suit or petition, sitting in client meetings and gleaning facts from your clients, sitting with senior lawyers and briefing them. In litigation, every one of your skills is tested thoroughly. Whether it is the hard legal skills of drafting or research or soft skills in managing client expectations and dealing with the registry, all your work and life experience will come into play when working in litigation and therefore, to me at least, it was one of the more challenging experiences of my life.

Take our readers through this wonderful transition and journey you have experienced and kindly share your legal insights in sports issues.

(Thereafter Aditya joined GameChanger Law Advisors as a Senior Consultant and as the Managing Editor of gamechangerindia.com and finally became Partner of GameChanger Law Advisors.)

GameChanger Law Advisors (a legal advisory practice) and GameChanger Sports Ventures (a consultancy and online web magazine on the business of sport) was founded by Amrut Joshi (NLSIU, Batch of 2003) in the year 2011. I was always interested in sports law and sports businesses and most of my friends knew of that interest. I was put in touch with Amrut through a common friend and I wound up joining both the law firm and the consultancy in 2012. Initially, it was just the two of us in the law practice.

GameChanger Sports Ventures was conceptualized as a sports business consulting firm to provide niche consulting services to the sports industry (such as sponsorship consulting, social media marketing, and other advisory services). While Amrut and I were responsible for shaping the content platform i.e. gamechangerindia.com, Prantik Mazumdar (who is a reputed digital marketing consultant in Singapore) was leading the execution of all consulting assignments.

The idea was to bootstrap the sports consulting venture with revenues earned from a pure play law practice (i.e. from GameChanger Law Advisors) and from a social media consulting practice (in Prantik’s case). We straddled our corporate and commercial law practice with GameChanger Sports Ventures’ work for the first few years. However, due to Amrut’s and my legal experience, the law practice continued to get stronger (as a result of a strong startup ecosystem in both Bangalore and New Delhi), and we eventually pivoted to a model where we were exclusively focusing on pure-play legal services, which included assisting clients on Angel/VC investment transactions, technology licensing transactions, commercial contracting, sports law and employment law advisory All the while, we have continued to retain our focus on servicing clients in the startup and sports industries.

Please tell our readers about GameChanger Law Advisors, its area of operations, services offered. What was the thought process behind joining GameChanger Law Advisors?

GameChanger Law Advisors, is a boutique commercial law practice that is focused on servicing clients in the Startup, Sports and SME ecosystem. We currently have full-fledged offices in Bangalore and New Delhi. Our core areas of practice are:

• Corporate and Commercial Law Advisory;
• Employment Law Advisory;
• Angel and Venture Capital Investments;
• Mergers and Acquisitions;
• A specialised practice supporting the Technology and Media industries; and
• A specialised practice supporting the Sports Industry.

The thought process behind joining GameChanger Law Advisors was that I wanted to work in industry areas in which I am interested. In addition, I had a unique opportunity to build a law practice that is modern, contextual and meritocratic in its outlook. The decision was borne out of that interest, it was an instinctive decision taken after weighing all the pros and cons of leaving an established practice area and attempting to develop and carve out a niche for ourselves.

Company Law applies equally to any company irrespective of the industry it does business in. Our value addition as corporate and commercial legal counsel stems from the fact that we strive to obtain a deep understanding of our clients’ businesses and their commercial considerations and pinpoints, while rendering our services. The fact that Amrut and I were able to obtain a substantial amount of first-hand non-legal business experience also helps us when we share our experiences with Founders of startups now. As much as it is a cliché, we believe that we will only be successful and relevant to our clients if we provide advice that is practical and not merely by reading to them the plain letter of the law. .

How did your interest grow towards sports law as this an area less travelled by corporate lawyers?

I used to watch and play quite a few sports growing up. Watching and reading about sports like Football and Basketball got me thinking about how sports are a reasonably structured business in the West. Sports as a business in India was only unlocked in the early 90’s with lucrative TV deals for cricket broadcast and sky high endorsements for Sachin Tendulkar. Even as recently as the early part of the last decade, sports business in India was equated with just cricket. Since then however, the business of sport in India has evolved gradually. The last few years has seen the advent of leagues in sports such as Football, Kabaddi, Hockey, Badminton and Tennis. These leagues are now spawning a professional ecosystem, which comprises not just the players but also other stakeholders such as sponsors, franchise owners, broadcasters, infrastructure providers, coaches, medical staff, player agents etc.

The growth of this ecosystem has also gradually increased the demand for specialised legal services to support different stakeholders in the sports industry. Sports Law, in our view, is “applied law”, and is a discipline that requires a good working knowledge of several other bodies of law such as contract law, constitutional law, administrative law, intellectual property law and company law. You cannot be a good sports lawyer unless you are a good lawyer!

How is the work life at GameChanger Law Advisors and how do you maintain the work and family life balance?

We strive hard to maintain a work-life balance at GameChanger. However being a young firm, with a growing client base, work-life balance is sometimes a luxury that we cannot afford. Those situations notwithstanding, we try to make sure that we don’t unnecessarily keep long hours. We try and make sure that the entire team gets a complete break on Saturdays and Sundays so that we are fresh and ready to deal with new challenges at the beginning of every week! Being a small team, we are also flexible with leave and holiday requests- the team tries its best to cover up for any person who is on leave/vacation, so that the vacation/leave can be used for its actually intended purpose! Having said that, if there are unavoidable situations at work, which require us to be available for clients at late hours or on weekends, our team members are game to accept such challenges too!

You have various publications on sports law to your credit. Kindly share your experience with young readers and how your interest was drawn to this field.

Publications are something which I didn’t really take to seriously in Law School. I didn’t attach to much importance to it at that point of time as I viewed it as an exercise which requires too much effort for no tangible result. Only once I started working did I realise the value in writing. Legal writing truly hones your theoretical skill and grasp over the subject at hand. In addition, it helps you to express your views, strive towards paying attention to detail and reach a target audience that is relevant to your practice. As a firm, GameChanger Law Advisors puts a lot of emphasis on legal writing, not just in the field of sports law, but also other areas of law such as corporate law, administrative law, employment law and contract law.

If I have any advice for a young law student, it would be to use the opportunities during college life to get published as much as possible. If a subject interests you, write about various topics that are current and relevant to the legal debates of the day. It is an extremely handy skill-set to have and something which in my view will never go to waste.

Do you have any plans to pursue higher education in the future specially in sports laws?

No current plans to pursue higher education, in sports law or otherwise, though I would love to do a sports law related LL.M so I would not rule that out for the future if the opportunity ever presents itself.

Avaantika Kakkar, a 2003 graduate of Indian Law Society’s Law College, Pune, is currently a Partner at Khaitan and CO., heading its Competition and Antitrust Law practice. Soon after graduating, she published her book, “A Perspective on Product Liability Law and Consumer Safety”, and she continues to take active interest in academia, especially if it is linked to Competition Law. In this interview, she tells us about:

• The passion for indulging in research and how it helps build character;
• Getting one’s work published;
• The challenging path to success in a niche area like Competition law;
• The nature of a corporate job; and
• The importance of balancing personal and private life (with some great musical recommendations to help students find the crucial balance).

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

Simply, I am Avaantika.

What would you like to share with our readers about your time spent at ILS Pune, both within and beyond the classroom? How did the city itself play a part in your legal education?

ILS Pune has a fantastic library – that was my favourite hang-out. It’s a college that allows you to be what you want to be and in my time, at least, we had a very supportive and encouraging faculty. We had visiting professors who were practicing lawyers with superb independent reputations, and they allowed us glimpses into what it would be like to practice law.

One may miss the perpetual ‘internships’  that colleges in other cities offer, but at ILS, the good part is that you have all that time for a real, college life, and you use your vacations for internships and practical exposure.

About Pune – what can I say? I love the city and keep going back! It accommodates my beautiful Alma Mater, in the heart of the city, with its own scenic hill-side (which students and teachers of the college along with the residents of Pune have to defend against the occasional threats of flyovers and by-pass roads!).

I lived on what constituted both sides of the city back then – ILS and CAMP area (the cantonment). The city has expanded, and too much has changed, however there is always FTII, MG Road, East Street, Marz-O-Rin and THoaks (Thousand Oaks, for the uninitiated)!

During your time spent there, what, if any, extra-curricular or co-curricular activities did you take up? How did the same affect your learning experience and prepare you for the legal sector?

Moot courts and debates, of course. But what I enjoyed most was writing – I finished my book on product liability in India while I was in college. Of course, I felt it was ahead of its time and was never the bestseller that I had intended it to be but, yes – writing it, editing it, and finally, getting it published was a great learning curve. This has helped in moulding the writer in me, and I remain deeply involved with the publication initiatives at Khaitan & Co, and I type really fast!

Did you always have a passion for research or was it an acquired taste? What specific experiences or circumstances lead you to write your book on product liability and consumer safety?

I always had a passion for research – still do.

I guess I wrote on the subject because, in my naïve-student-mind, I felt that this was a subject on which very little had been written, and I was inspired with all that sparkle in the law of torts.

What advice would you give our readers looking to enter academia and publish their own work?

It really depends on what you are looking to publish. There are many opportunities now, with online publications for short essays and articles that make it easier than it was. I had managed some publications in international law journals that solicited legal writing by students. There is also self-publishing, whether through e-books or traditional methods (but I would use that after exhausting all other options). Law book publishers are always on the look-out for more subjects and good writing. In fact, they still receive, read and respond to unsolicited manuscripts. Then, there is the Big 6 (or whatever the number is now) and the option of publishing great reference texts or non-fiction through them, but these would have to be extremely meaningful and insightful works that interest the publisher commercially.

How would you say research publications impact one’s understanding of the law and the legal system? Further, how does the same impact one’s employability or desirability to prospective employers?

Research publications help one dive deep into the subject – you become alert to nuances and learn to articulate your thoughts. I think that ours is a field that will always value clear-thinking individuals who are able to get to the depth of a problem (and also out of it!). Quality publications (or writing) are often an ask of almost every practice, including Khaitan & Co. and Nishith Desai Associates (where I worked for a brief period).

Given your extensive work with Competition Law in India, what would you like to share with our readers about the same as a relatively newer area of law in India?

Competition Law is exciting because it’s a developing law in India. We are a nascent jurisdiction and it is great to be so deeply involved in the creation of precedent. The really challenging (and thrilling) aspect of competition law is that it puts you in direct touch with the conduct of, and incentive for, businesses across sectors. It’s a great practice area for lawyers who like research – one aspect of this law is that both the regulator and the practitioners look for precedent from jurisdictions that have been around much longer.

About antitrust and competition law in general, what experiences, internships, or other activates would you say are essential to anyone looking to specialise in this field, during or after law school?

It helps to have studied the subject extensively (this is true for most practice areas, actually). The challenge is that the subject is not always formally taught in Law Schools so one has to look for online courses or specialised short courses, which are a good start.

I also think that a background in M&A, general corporate and commercial laws, or litigation experience, goes a long way in making a comfortable transition into this super-specialised field.

How do you see the future of competition law in India as, and what would you advise those looking to enter the same field? To what extent do you see it as a niche area within the general sphere of corporate practise?

Yes, competition law could be a niche practice, but I think that the general sphere constitutes an overlap of corporate practice (of course) as well as litigation, commercial laws, data protection, and intellectual property laws, at the very least. I actually see the practice of competition law as rather a melting pot of all of these practice areas. Also, it is already becoming a standalone practice across the firms that were first movers in this area and in the future, I see it as a very important constituent of full service law firms. I also see a future for boutique competition law firms – in the more distant future.

When and how did you identify competition and antitrust law as your specialization? How did your career path or trajectory change after that?

(Avaantika worked earlier at Udwadia & Udeshi in their general corporate advisory, and later moved on to broader corporate and commercial matters at Nishith Desai Associates)

My varied background and diverse experience with complex corporate structuring, advisory work on the commercial side, transactions on the secondary market, my exposure to listing work as well as going private (delisting transactions) and the time that I spent on structured finance and the contentious matters that I was involved with, have all helped me work as a competition lawyer who has some value add.

I know that today, there is a strong emphasis on specialisation from the day that students graduate – I think this is an unfortunate development of our times, and I was lucky that I had mentors, great guidance and the opportunity to choose specialisation when I had had at least 6 years of varied experience across practices.

My career path is largely in line with what one may expect. Competition law allows for intellectual satisfaction and deep academic fulfilment.

What would you like to share with our readers about the general work environment and the demanding nature of a corporate sector job?

(As a partner at Khaitan & Co Avaantika has led multiple mergers and acquisitions, and acted as an advisor on many transactions and joint ventures, etc.)

It’s the same everywhere, really. I don’t know of any job that does not demand a deep mental and physical commitment from you. It helps if you let this great profession define who you are. At some level, it impacts who you are as a person, which is not always a bad thing.

Take some time off, read, get some exercise (or, watch a movie!), spend time with your family, but be equally focussed and committed to your profession.

I haven’t really found the answer to how one copes with the demanding nature of a job – the truth is, you just have to find balance whenever you can, and it isn’t a very precise scale that you weigh your experiences on!

It is obviously great to cultivate hobbies and have interests outside of work but there will be days, in fact, weeks and sometimes a few months, when it will be maddening! This is also where the organisation that you work with comes into play – do they care?

What would you like to say about the trade off, if any, between a personal life outside the office and effort required to make it as an advocate?

Law is a bad wife. But, she makes a good mistress, right? You have to be there for her!

The law, the practice of medicine and at least a few other jobs (rather professions), do require us to be on our toes, work hard, work smart and do what it takes to stay relevant. This is a constant, unending process (I am sure most senior, successful doctors and lawyers would vouch for this).

It helps to surround yourself with family (and friends) that support your passion and your ambition – this is often tougher than finding balance at work (because we don’t always get to choose our families!).

Having said this – prioritise your work. Prioritise your life. I don’t think that we can lead a life without regrets, but regret is an avoidable circumstance! Some things are pretty obvious – I, for instance, would take no pride in describing how I missed out on important moments in my life or with my family. But, at the same time I take great pride in my work and am unapologetic about its excruciating demands – my work defines who I am – this is who I hold myself out to be – there is therefore, no scope for any misrepresentations!

Finally, what would be your parting message for our readers, most of whom are law students and young lawyers?

Work hard, work smart – most of all, enjoy what you do. Give in to the effort that it requires, don’t feel sorry for yourself and try not to take yourself too seriously.

I love advising students to read (possibly listen to) Baz Lurhmann’s words. Also, listen to The Gambler by Kenny Rogers – let it play in your head and guide you as you make the choices that will come to define you, as an individual and as a professional.

Hormaz Daruwalla graduated from University of Bombay in 1987. He started his career as an Advocate with Crawford Bayley& Company, handling cases pertaining to indirect tax under Mr Dadi Engineer.

In the year 1992, Hormaz started his practice as a Counsel at the Bombay High Court and joined the Chambers of Senior Advocate Mr Atul Setalvad.

Hormaz is well respected and is a specialist in the fields of customs, central excise, service tax, foreign trade policy, special economic zones, anti-dumping, VAT and other local levies. He is particularly sought for his opinions generally on law and on the subjects he specialises in. His experience in advising clients on issues pertaining to indirect tax litigation, structuring, planning and other related issues makes him a popular lawyer among corporates. What makes him special is his ability in arguing cases before different fora including the High Courts and the Supreme Court of India.

In this interview, he talks to us about:

• Importance of Indirect taxation as a subject for law students.
• Is specialisation a good thing in today’s professional world.
• What does it take to be a good indirect tax lawyer.
• Steps to prepare for a difficult case.

Most of our readers are young lawyers and law students. How will you introduce yourself to them?

I am just one of them but only have been around a bit longer. The challenges they face today, I face too. The excitement and energy they feel, I experience too. Over the years the choices I’ve made based on my thinking has determined who and where I am in my personal life as well as my professional career today. I don’t regret the choices I made but will always say I could’ve done better though.

Were you always clear about your career plans considering you pursued commerce and went on to graduate in law from University of Bombay?

I started with the LLB course at the Government Law College, Mumbai in 1984. At the same time, I also enrolled for the Company Secretaries course of the Institute of Company Secretaries of India. In 1987, I completed the LLB course, enrolled for the LLM course and was in my final group of the Company Secretaries course. During this period there was only one thing that I was certain about, which is that I wanted to become a Counsel. I had no clue of what subject of Law I would, if at all, specialise in. In those days we never had an opportunity to test, check, see and feel the subject you would make a career of. There were no internships as we have them today, but all I had was an open mind and the determination to work hard to become a Counsel. Those were the days when one had to appear in matters in Court and one needed a certain basic understanding of the working of the system. Working in a Law Firm would be the best training ground to get that basic understanding.  My batch mate and good friend Rohan Shah, now Senior Partner at Economic Law Practices, who had articled at Crawford Bayley & Company told me about a vacancy there. Their Senior Partner, Mr Dadi Engineer was a leading expert in Central Excise and Customs Law and needed the services of an Advocate Assistant. So I joined Crawford Bayley & Co and I remember the monthly remuneration used to be Rs 1,680/- (and this was before ‘tax deduction at source’ days).Indirect Tax was something new to me as the LLB course did not teach us even a word about it. I didn’t know if I’d like it or have the affinity for it or be able to cope with it or had the aptitude for it. But, as I said, nothing else mattered other than getting an opportunity to get on my race track to become a Counsel.

What responsibilities you were entrusted with in Crawford Bayley & Company?

My three years in that Crawford Bayley & Company was perhaps one of the most important periods in my professional career. It is here that I learnt a lot of what I know today. Those were the basics and the fundamentals. The systems, organisational skills, planning processes and most importantly my thinking process on issues of Law, were all formed at this stage. Under Mr Engineer I learnt to draft replies to notices and appeals. I soon started appearing before Departmental Officers and even the Customs, Excise and Gold (Control) Appellate Tribunal as it then was. Mr Engineer gave me a free hand at appearing and drafting. During this time I also got a great deal of experience in giving legal opinions on issues pertaining to Indirect Tax, as also structuring of businesses. But I must mention one thing that I practiced then which I am very glad I did and from which I have abundantly benefited, i.e. I have never said no to any kind of work given to me. This is something that I would always advise students and lawyers at least in the early years of their career.

Please share your experience with Senior Advocate Mr Atul Setalvad.

At the end of three years, I started as a Counsel in the Chamber of Senior Advocate Atul M Setalvad, as Junior to Senior Advocate Darius B Shroff. Atul Setalvad was a father figure to all of us. Atul (he insisted we all call him by his first name) was known for his crisp, concise, lucid and extremely effective drafting. He had the ability of breaking down extremely detailed and confusing issues into short, crisp and simple issues and he would get to the heart of the matter within no time.“Get your facts right first” he would say. Then study what the Law is, then apply the Law to the set of facts and only then look for authorities and precedents. He would be critical of people, who had such an obsession for precedents, that no sooner than you state a problem they rush off to look for a precedent. He also taught us never to argue the unarguable. This and much more is what I learnt in that Chamber. More importantly, it was a great place to learn lessons in honesty, integrity and humility. The skills and abilities that I acquired at Crawford Bayley & Company got honed, polished and further refined in this Chamber. I continued as a Counsel until October 2014 and during this period I appeared with the same enthusiasm and preparation before the junior most officer of the Excise and Customs Department as I would when I appeared before the Hon’ble Supreme Court of India.

What was it that moved you to join Khaitan & Co after many years of being a Counsel?

Khaitan & Co has an Indirect Tax Team of over 15 people spread over Mumbai, Delhi, Kolkata and Bengaluru.  The Firm wanted the benefit of my experience of appearing before the Supreme Court and the High Courts in high-value matters.  As I had this expertise, it was a good choice for me. Over the last one and a half years I have enjoyed working with the team and appeared in matters before the Supreme Court, various High Courts and the Customs, Excise and Service Tax Appellate Tribunal.  I am thoroughly enjoying every moment with people more wonderful than I can imagine and having the best of both, Court work as well as Chamber practice.

At Khaitan & Co we have the best of cultures and I needn’t stress more but only say that it’s a respectable law firm based on values of fairness, integrity, diligence and responsibility and part of its ambition statement is “Earn we should but with dignity and pleasure.” Wow!

How important is Indirect Taxation as a subject for law students?

Sixty percent of all Government revenues at the Centre are from Indirect Taxation. That will give you an indication of how important the subject of Indirect Tax is in today’s environment. Every business, profession or calling today experience challenges and problems with taxation and in particular Indirect Taxation. Indirect Tax is becoming the biggest single cost for most businesses and if they can save a couple of percentages on that, that’ll mean a lot of money to add to their profits.  With the negative list regime under Service Tax, there is hardly any activity that does not involve taxation. Corporates are constantly seeking advice and assistance on issues of taxation, which issues are getting more complicated by the day. Every amendment, even if for the purpose of simplification, poses further issues. As I see it, whichever subject of law that a young lawyer may pursue as a career, a basic understanding of Indirect Taxation is an absolute must.

Which field of law will you advise law students to pursue?

Over the years I have met many law students and young lawyers who find the subject of taxation per se boring. To them I say, “It’s all in your head”, which is a fact. Students today have such good opportunities to test what they would be best at and internships are fantastic opportunities to get over these mental blocks. Very often a student may have a special liking towards a certain subject and may have the aptitude and affinity for that subject. The student may also be indifferent or have a dislike towards another subject. This indifference or dislike is mostly due to ignorance and lack of exposure in the right manner to that subject of law. I would say to such a student to not waste his internship opportunity on the subject he knows, he has a liking, aptitude and / or affinity for, but instead use the opportunity to actually intern in a subject that he is wary about. This way he can get a more accurate and correct picture of the subject and can then make a learned decision about his career choice. The different subjects in this field of law are vast and varied. It is only the person himself who needs to decide his choice of subject. It would be rather foolish for anyone else to make this choice for him. I would advise the student, in making this choice, to necessarily have an open mind free from blocks and prejudices caused mainly by lack of knowledge about a subject. His decision will ofcourse be guided by his own likes, dislikes and which will be in line with his character and attitude. And I say that he will be successful in anything he does so long as he has the right mental attitude and is prepared to work diligently an thirdly of course he must enjoy what he does.

Do you think specialisation is a good thing in today’s professional world?

It does not matter really whether one specialises or has a general all round practice. What is important though is that you can equally excel in any subject of law that you may choose. I would say that ofcourse today is the age of specialisation whether it is in the medical profession or in our legal profession.  At Khaitan & Co too, which is the best full-service law firm, each area of practice is handled and headed by specialists in that particular area of law.

I feel that very often, like it happened to me, a young lawyer may not specialise out of choice but may find himself guided into a particular subject and before he knows it, he is branded as  a specialist in that subject. It is that branding that ensures that he gets work only relating to that particular subject of law which further confirms his specialisation.

How can one gain expertise in Indirect Tax? What does it take to be a good Indirect Tax lawyer?

Indirect Tax is a subject that is very volatile as well as dynamic. This requires the practitioner to constantly be appraised of the changes happening almost every day. A lazy attitude in this regard will only mean instant death, so to speak. Only his constant updating of knowledge and information and ofcourse repetition can ensure expertise in this field. This I would say will also be true for any other practice area, but it’s more so true for Indirect Tax. The student or young lawyer desiring to take up Indirect Tax as his area of practice must necessarily be prepared to read a lot of material whether it is the constant changes or Government policies or Court decisions.  And remember, there are no free lunches!

What has been your strategy to deal with errors and mistakes?

The first step I believe one needs to take to deal with errors and mistakes is to admit and acknowledge them. Unless this happens, one can never go any further.  Once acknowledged, the next step is to understand how and why the mistake happened. This will enable the person to eliminate the cause and consequently future mistakes. Mistakes are a very vital part of the learning process, one must understand that the day you stop making mistakes you stop learning and you stagnate.

What steps do you take to prepare for a difficult case?

Preparing for a difficult case is something that I have learnt to enjoy and believe me in this profession and in the subject of Indirect Tax one can get ample opportunities for such enjoyment. To start with one needs to meet the client and listen to him carefully and attentively while he tells you all about his case. This is something where many people lack. Make copious notes and perfectly understand the facts. The next stage would be to study the various provisions of law that are applicable to the facts and then understand and set out precisely what issues arise in the matter. The wheat needs to be separated from the chaff, so to speak. It is only then, after breaking up the entire case into bits and getting to the heart of the issue, that one can start figuring out a solution or answer to the issue. The answer could be either a practical one or found in interpreting the law in a particular manner by application of well-founded principles or a mix of both. The last stage would be to support the submissions by authoritative references or Case Law as applicable.

What are the preferred legal issues you like to work on? Do you have any hobbies that help you unwind after a long day at work?

As I said I stopped having any preference for any particular kind of legal issues. What interests me though are issues that have an impact on public at large. I have always said to the tax collector “Tax if you must, but only with the authority that you may have and with the dignity that is expected of you”. In the same breath, I also say to the tax payer “Pay your taxes honestly and avoid if you pay your taxes only within limits a decent citizen would”. There is a fine line between tax avoidance and tax evasion and many a tax avoidance schemes can very well fall within the category of tax evasion. My advice to clients has always been to keep litigation to the minimum.

All said and done, I thoroughly enjoy what I am doing now at Khaitan & Co, but do really miss what I used to do many years ago in often appearing for NGOs in environmental matters. I do try to pursue my passion for the outdoors with an occasional trek or hike and I always look forward to a long walk in the evenings to help me unwind.

What are your views about the upcoming GST regime?

The GST regime is something that has attracted a lot of speculation. I wouldn’t want to add to this. Though I will say that it is a brilliant move in the right direction made by the previous Government and we all eagerly await it’s coming into effect, I don’t see it happen in the near future.  When it does come into effect, it will have many advantages to businesses. However, in the initial years all prices will shoot up considerably and will take considerable time to stabilise. Although there might be provisions for rationalisation of the tax, as I said earlier any change in the law substantive or procedural will bring up a new series of litigation which will continue for several years until settled finally. This may be good news for young lawyers.

What would be your parting message for your readers?

Start getting lucky and courageous in your career.

You might wonder what I am talking about but I do not subscribe to the conventional dictionary meaning of “luck” which is “Success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one’s own actions.”  I would think this is an apt definition of “gambling” but not of “luck”.  But I do subscribe to what the great Roman Philosopher Seneca had to say.  He said, “Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.” Opportunities come by every person in equal amounts but it’s only the one who is prepared and ready for it, who can actually see them and make good use of them. It is he who is “lucky”.  The truth is, we make our own luck and the difference between lucky and unlucky people is their level of preparedness; not only of everything else but most importantly prepared with the right mental attitude.

Everything is constantly changing; that’s inevitable.  Change will happen whether you like it or not.  Don’t be afraid to make choices.  The wiser thing to do is to model your choices around the change to your advantage or else the change may not be to your liking.

As far as getting lucky is concerned, start preparing for it by developing the right mental attitude.

Get up, Get going and Good luck!

Dr. Tarunabh Khaitan is an alumnus of the 2004 batch of NLSIU, Bangalore and a recipient of the prestigious Rhodes Scholarship. After completing his masters (BCL) from Oxford University, Tarunabh decided to pursue higher studies, he completed his M.Phil and D.Phil from Oxford in 2007 and 2010 respectively. Tarunabh is an Associate Professor at Oxford currently, he teaches Constitutional Law and Jurisprudence to undergraduates, Discrimination Law to graduates, and supervises research in his areas of interest.

In this interview he talks about:

• Studying at NLSIU and at Oxford.
• Building a profile and SOP for pursuing further studies at the best universities.
• A bit about the
• His experience working as an Associate Professor at Oxford and as a visiting scholar at New York University.

How would you like to introduce yourself to them?

I am an academic working on law and legal theory.

Did you have lawyers in your family or in close proximity? How did you come to touch with law?

I don’t have any lawyers in my family. Where I grew up law wasn’t something one aspired to. A more urbane cousin passed on the law school prospectus and I gave it a go—entirely serendipitous. This chanced encounter with the law motivated my discussions with Shamnad Basheer on the need for diversity in law schools. I am very pleased to see his dynamism and energy in taking the IDIA (Increasing Diversity by Increasing Access) project from strength to strength.

How was your law school experience at NLSIU? Do you recall your first day at the Halls of Residence? Would you like to share any observation/memory from those days?

I loved my time in law school, largely because of the friends I made, and because that is where my political education happened. My politics and history classes and my internship with Aruna Roy’s Mazdoor Kisan Shakti Sangathan (MKSS) early in my law school career were particularly instructive. These early influences have continued to shape my thinking and career ever since.

I don’t recall my first day at law school, but I was probably very nervous and convinced they made a mistake in letting me in. Everyone else seemed cleverer. In hindsight, despite many positives, I don’t think law school challenged me enough academically. With some honourable exceptions, most courses required minimal effort, and reading cases or articles was entirely optional. I got a lot out of those five years and wouldn’t change that for anything else, but Indian law school needs to do a lot more to deliver on their primary mission of teaching law to young minds, and to help them think independently about the law.

What were your areas of interest during your graduation? How did you go about developing expertise and knowledge in these areas?

I was interested in public law and human rights law. My interest in these fields has continued, although I engage with them through a theoretical lens mostly.

How do you think a law student can build up his profile to get through to top-notch universities like Oxford? What should one do differently in college if he wants to pursue higher studies after graduation?

Most people in law school are very clever. Effort and motivation is the main thing that makes a difference. Most postgrad universities care about academic excellence alone. If you want to join the academy, more important than strategically designing your profile is to have a genuine love for scholarship—if you have that craving, you are likely to do the right things. So it is useful to ask yourself why you want to join the academy, what you think the role and purpose of a university is, and whether and how your personal goals interact with the point of scholarship.

That said, investing in learning how to write well can help. Indian law schools typically require you to do a lot of writing, but good feedback on improving your style, structure, argument and content is rare. I learnt the importance of clear, simply-communicated scholarship during my time at MKSS rather than at law school. To paraphrase a conversation over a dinner with Aruna Roy some 15 years ago, I remember her telling me that a polity needs good scholarship, but one that is readily intelligible. It was an important lesson.

What was your area of study during your masters at Oxford? What was the academic pressure like and did you find time to engage yourself in other activities?

I focussed on jurisprudence, human rights, constitutional theory and the penal system for my BCL. My doctoral research was on discrimination law theory, which was eventually published by OUP last year.

How did you take the decision to pursue higher studies? How did you go about choosing the programme and the university?

Like Edward Said, I believe that the role of an intellectual is to speak truth to power. It is the truth-seeking purpose of scholarship that underscores the importance of academic freedom. As for choosing Oxford, I got a scholarship to go there: that mostly did it.

What was your first reaction on learning that you are being awarded the Rhodes scholarship? Do you recall the first few days and the interview?

I was very happy, as one would expect. It has been a while (more than a decade), but I think most questions were character-oriented.

How did you go about writing your résumé and most importantly, your Statement of Purpose?

Not sure what résumé I submitted then, but I have come to realise the importance of short résumé, no more than one and a half sides. Selection panels include busy people, who have little more than a few minutes to make an initial judgment. Be kind to them, give a clean, professional résumé with your most important achievements. For the SOP, get as much feedback as you can on early drafts—from friends, family, professors, anyone whose opinion you care for. Make every sentence mean something. Keep it direct, personal, and honest. Don’t do platitudes.

What would be your advice to our young readers who would like to apply for Rhodes scholarship in future? What all does it take to have a brilliant profile good enough for the Rhodes?

I don’t think there is a formula. Rhodes scholars are a very diverse bunch, and there are many different ways to succeed. It is also important to remember that while the Rhodes Scholarship is valuable, it is not the only available door. While the role of luck cannot be discounted, if you have worked hard, something worthwhile should turn up. Being at an elite law school is already a position of immense privilege, one that secures opportunities not available to many others.

How was your experience at Oxford? What are the classes and professors like? Are the classes more interactive?

Oxford undergraduates are taught mainly in tutorials where 2 students meet a tutor for an hour once a week to have a pre-submitted essay dissected in detail. The contact hours are few—an undergraduate student typically gets 12 hours of tutorial in total in an 8 week term. But the intensity of exposure is staggering: there is no place to hide, not for the student, nor for the tutor. Lectures are mostly optional and students choose to go if they like the lecturer. Graduate students are mainly taught in larger seminars of 10-15 students, although they also get a limited number of tutorial exposure. The mainstay of the student experience here is the astonishing amount of self-study expected from students. A typical undergraduate student will normally read about 6-10 cases and 4-8 journal articles every week—graduate students read even more.

How rigorous was the academic schedule? Would you say a doctorate from Oxford can help make a good grounding for a career in academics?

Research students don’t have any schedule, it is really important to be self-disciplined and be passionate about your research to keep going. Research can be a lonely and daunting process, and your relationship with your supervisor is the key. I was lucky to have a great supervisor in Nick Bamforth, I also know people who were less fortunate. A good doctorate is increasingly becoming absolutely essential to a career in legal academia. I would recommend prospective research students to make early informal contact with potential supervisors. Doctorates in the UK tend to take a lot less time than they do in the US.

How is your experience of teaching at Oxford? Which subjects do you teach? How are the current batches of students whom you teach?

I currently teach constitutional law and jurisprudence to undergraduates, discrimination law to graduates, and supervise research in my area of interest. I find that teaching feeds into my research in interesting ways, and with the best students, I frequently learn as I teach.

Do tell us more about the Global Research Fellowship Scheme, 2016 and your experience at NYU.

I am on sabbatical for the rest of this calendar year. I am currently visiting the law school at the University of Melbourne, and plan to spend a few months later in the year at New York University. It is just a time to get out of Oxford, learn a bit about how things are done at other universities, and get some research time without the pressures of teaching.

Prem Rajani graduated from Government Law College in 1990 and is now the Managing Partner of Rajani Associates which was established in 1999. In this interview he talks to us about:

• His time in law school and how facets of the profession have evolved with time.
• The importance of moots, debating and internships.
• Building a corporate law firm profile.
• Working in Structuring and M&A deals.
• Advice for young lawyers today.

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers, most of whom are university going law students in India?

Currently I am the Managing Partner of Rajani Associates. Rajani Associates is a full-service law firm based in Mumbai and established in November 1999. The Firm has been involved in domestic and international practice in nearly all fields of corporate law as well as commercial litigation and property law. The Firm closely works alongside firms in the US, Europe, Middle East, South East Asia and Australia to meet the needs of our global clients. Our areas of practice are Corporate & Commercial, Mergers & Acquisitions and Competition Law, Banking and Finance, Domestic and International Capital Markets, Private Equity, Corporate Litigation and Arbitration, fund Formation, Real Estate & Trusts, Projects and Project Finance, Technology, Media & Telecom and Intellectual Property rights, Corporate Debt Restructuring, Structuring, Anti-Bribery and Corruption.

Tell us about your life before you joined law school. What made you gravitate towards law?

Immediately after finishing with school and college (commerce faculty from Jai Hind College) I joined Government Law College. The paramount factor that made me take up law was my father’s business that had a lot of dependency on solicitors for preparation of legal documents. Alongside my studies, very early on, I started assisting my father with his business and as a result often met many solicitors. The manner in which solicitors conducted themselves fascinated me. I started getting drawn to legalities and the documents that were being prepared. There came a point that I became so passionate about the profession that I had no doubt left in my mind that a solicitor is all I wanted to be.

You graduated from GLC in 1990. How were the days? What would you advise our readers is the ideal things to look to get out of university, other than a degree?

During my time law firms did not retain interns for summer/winter training and as such work training for most of us did not happen till we joined a law firm as an article for solicitor examination training. Most of us therefore very seriously attended college and read books from the library. Today the trend has changed. Young students are getting a chance to intern at a variety of established law firms giving them a chance to know and practice law outside of books and may be college attendance has taken a backseat. However I don’t necessarily mean that in a bad way. I only do wish to suggest to the younger generation that along with collecting work experience they must spend more time reading Bare Acts and established commentary books rather than simply relying on test papers to clear examinations, because after all knowledge of Law is paramount and irreplaceable. The opportunity to participate in moot courts as a student is also great and every student must to his or her best ability try and participate in them, whether as the research team or on the argument team. Lastly, irrespective of which branch of Law one wants to profess, it is my sincere belief and advice that every law student must spend the first two-three years of his or her career practicing hardcore litigation.

What were your areas of interest in the law? Did you engage in extracurricular activities while in college?

During my college days my areas of interest were predominantly the Transfer of Property Act, Income Tax Act and a few other substantial laws (such as the Contract Act, Trust Act, Sales of Goods Act, and Negotiable Instrument Act). Somehow, I was not very inclined towards the constitution of criminal Laws. As mentioned above, in my opinion moot court competitions, mediation competitions and debates are extremely important both in terms of gaining knowledge and to get over stage phobia. I used to stand up and address the judge as well as counter the opponent quite comfortably, all of which assisted in my overall development.

How must a law student decide on choosing his internships?  What criteria did you follow if any?

As I stated earlier, during the initial days a student must try to do more of litigation and property Law and accordingly select law firms established in these practice areas. In my opinion, an understanding of these Laws builds a good foundation for the general practice of Law. However if a student is already decided and is highly focused on a specific branch of Law (such as IPR) then the student must select a law firm accordingly.

Tell us about your internship experiences while at university. How did they aid your development?

The concept of internship did not exist during my college / university days. What existed and what I did sign up for was articleship (a specialized training programme required to pursue the examination of solicitors). I for one had a wonderful experience during my articled days. I was fortunate to have not one but three brilliant seniors. The experience and exposure I received was unmatched and changed my entire perception towards how Law is understood, applied and practiced. During my articleship days there was no access to computers or search engines (life without which is unimaginable by many youngsters today). All research was based on the traditional style of referring to books and a physical library and most often but not self-interpretation. It helped us lawyers from those days to hone our research skills, develop our sense of interpretation and most of all gain an all-round knowledge on various topics of Law.

What led you to gravitate towards Structuring and M&A practice? What opportunities may one find in this area?

During 1990 private equities and IPOs did not exit much and as such the corporate world mostly comprised M&A activities. Structuring became a natural choice (and is now a hobby) considering the complex Laws, most of which keep changing from time to time and the fact that no single transaction can be considered  keeping in mind only one single statue. M&A transactions at all points require the analysation of various Laws. For instance issue of a convertible security must be analysed under the Companies Act, the FDI Policy, SEBI Regulations (for a listed company) and Income Tax Act and in certain cases special statutes such as the Banking Act, Insurance Act etc.

You were well placed after graduation with the then new Foreign Exchange laws coming in post 1991, an area you focus on. Having seen the law evolve and various sectors open up, how did this first-hand experience prove valuable?

I am perhaps one of the few fortunate lawyers who saw the evolution of FDI from 1991 till date. Not only was I amongst those lawyers practicing the Law in 1991 but was also amongst those few who were then working in a corporate law firm. There has been a material shift from what Laws were in 1991 and what the FDI Laws are in 2016. One good aspect has been that during the past 25 years despite several Governments coming up no Government has reversed the FDI Policy. If at all, each Government has systematically liberalised the policy. The current Government has also been quite active and liberalised the policy significantly within the last 2 years. However, liberalisation at each stage has been well guarded and though one may find that there are still some restrictions, under the given economic situation of the country and the globe at large, personally I feel some of the restrictions and regulations are necessary in the interest of the nation.

As for my personal experience, I have first hand witnessed the initiation and then the journey of FDI in this country. It has given me the advantage of knowing and understanding each stage of liberalisation. I have had the chance to follow why a certain sector was so heavily guarded and why certain sectors have slowly and gradually been liberalised together with the thought process for each change. All of this has made my journey as a lawyer very exciting.

You have been ranked by Chambers and Partners and IFLR1000 as a leading lawyer for M&A in India. Could you tell our readers more about what this practice entails, for anyone who may be interested in taking it up?

As stated earlier M&A is an interesting field of Law and one needs to have an overall 360 degrees view and knowledge of the various direct and ancillary Laws involved. For instance, in case of acquisition of a listed company by another listed company one needs to analyse the applicable provisions of the Companies Act, SEBI Takeover Regulations, Insider Trading Regulations, Listing Regulations, FDI Policy (in case there is a significant foreign shareholder) Competition Act, Income Tax Act, Stamp Act and in the event the target company is engaged in any specific sector (viz Banking, Insurance) then those specific statutes also need to be studied. Along with all of this, there is also always a complex grid of transaction documents to be drafted or reviewed. All of this needs proper synchronization amongst various service providers to ensure that both parties to the deal eventually get what they have bargained for.

You founded a law firm that is doing very well today. What challenges do you think someone who wishes to start a firm or independent practice is likely to face? What would you advise them to do to mitigate such circumstances?

The challenges faced by me when I started this law firm in November 1999 are different then what are faced by start-ups today. During 1990s, in a year only two or three new firms were registered or formed, while currently there are almost twelve to thirteen new law firms coming up each year. During 1990s, most founders /partners would usually have 10 to 15 years experience before starting their own firm; but of late I have seen that there are some of the law firm’s with partners having 5 to 7 years of experience. Some of the young law firms start out on the promise or assurance of a handful of clients and that is exactly where these law firms should be cautious, in as much as one cannot start the law firm on the strength of 4-5 clients promising some business. Also all clients at the end of the day expect quality work and at no cost should that be compromised on due to inexperience or the lack of a team.

Rajani Associates has consistently been ranked at the top in dealing with Asia-Pacific M&A. Has there been a specific push towards this sector and how have you remained the best?

We are thankful that we continue to be ranked in the top in dealing with Asia-Pacific M&A. There is no specific push towards this sector. It is just that our work speaks for itself backed by the good wishes and recommendations of our clients and occasionally the counter parties in a transaction.

As Managing Partner of the firm, what is an average day at work like? We would love to hear about the day-to-day responsibilities that need to be handled by someone in your position.

I am usually in the office by 9:30 -9:45 a.m. and leave around 10:00 p.m., which is nearly 12 hours in the office. Though the Managing Partner, I still enjoy hands on work in any transaction, more particularly transactions that involve conceptualisation and structuring (whether Corporate or Litigation) and at times negotiations. During the day, in addition to working on some transactions, I also need to devote time to meet clients as well as discuss office related issues with the partners and occasionally also spend time with some associates. All of this goes towards grooming budding lawyers that are the future. No doubt there is a support staff, but there are occasions when some decisions do need my intervention. In addition to all this I enjoy speaking at Seminars (which requires me to spend more time reading and updating). And above all is the updates in Law. I spend my weekends reading the latest in Law, be it judgements or reforms in statutes or policies.

What advice do you have for fresh graduates who are entering law firms as an associate? What can they be expected to be judged on?

As I stated earlier, my advice to the fresh graduates is that they must spend at least the first two – three years in pursuing a litigation practice and amongst other substantial statutes they must read and understand Transfer Property Act, Sale of Goods Act, Trust Act etc. These mother Acts form the basic foundation of knowledge which sadly most of the young generation of lawyers are choosing to skip in the lure of directly studying and practicing the specialised statutes. Specialised statutes are very important but without the basic knowledge of substantial statues, young lawyers will find interpretation and drafting a legally enforceable document a bit challenging.

Finally, what is your parting message for our readers?

Unlike some of the other professions (Medical, Engineering, MBA) that have a high entry barrier requiring extensive hard work even before graduation, the legal profession has fewer entry barriers. Challenges for lawyers begin after they pass Law. The statutes keep changing from time to time, new judgements keep updating interpretations from time to time and more importantly one’s own ability to interpret Law develops from time to time. A lawyer is required to read and update himself or herself on a daily basis and throughout his or her professional career. A lawyer must have the passion for reading and must be open for different views or interpretations.

Nakul Bhatnagar graduated from Cardiff University, U.K. in 2011. At present, he is a Senior Consultant at Aquis Search with responsibility for private practice and in-house legal recruitment services in India. He recruits for various roles in the legal sector in India and across Asia. He is interested in connecting with potential clients who have talent acquisition requirements and professionals looking for their next career challenge.

 In this interview, he talks to us about:

• His experience at Cardiff University.
• How interns can get positive feedback in limited time.
• What law firms look for in potential candidates.
• His advice on CV building.

Most of our readers are young lawyers and law students. How will you introduce yourself to them?

I am a lawyer by training and legal recruiter by profession. I was born and raised in New Delhi and spent almost all my life here. Post class XII, I pursued the B.Com (Hons.) course from Delhi University and after having dabbled in very different fields in the industry, I decided to pursue Law. I completed my LL.B from Cardiff University, U.K. in 2011 and after having worked with a few organisations (including a law firm and a trade law counsel). I made the switch to legal recruitment in 2014 and joined an Indian legal recruitment firm. I am currently working as a Senior Consultant with Aquis Search – Asia’s leading executive search firm with offices in prominent Asian cities. I focus on legal and compliance recruitments, across junior and mid-levels in India and the Middle East.The story continues…

Having done B.com, what motivated you to choose law as a career? Or did it just happen?

Doing law was a rather calculated decision for me and I believe I found inspiration to do law from the most unusual places. During my college days, I was actively following the Indian independent music scene and briefly performed in a rock band myself. Not to mention, I was a very confused child and tried my hand in so many different fields to try and come to a career conclusion – I interned in places like design studios, ad agencies and a music / events company as well. Post my graduation, I was pretty much convinced that I wanted to take up music management and for a year, I worked with a company which promoted independent original music, managed artistes and organized live concerts & festivals. During this time, I had the good fortune of interacting with musicians and a few lawyers who introduced me to several new concepts like Copyright, Performance Rights and Digital Rights Management. I was quite intrigued to see how the law worked with something as basic as a song or a performance. It was something that I never thought could work so well in an ecosystem that seemed completely disconnected. I started researching on what options I may have and I decided to try and pursue law. Not to mention, my father is a lawyer by training himself and always encouraged me to pursue a career in the field. Little did I know that the adventure was just beginning!

Describe your experience at Cardiff University.

The experience of studying at a foreign university was surreal. The methodologies, the faculty, course structures and support offered were very beneficial to every law student. Cardiff, being one of the top law schools in the U.K., was possibly the biggest learning experience for me. Constant development every step of the way, studying there made me the person I am today. Studying in Cardiff gave me immense exposure to global standards of legal education and a connection to a worldwide network of prominent lawyers. An additional advantage of studying there was that the University is recognized by the Bar Council of India and the transition of practicing in India was never tough. Many Indian students who graduated from there have moved back and are successfully practicing here (even as Partners at leading law firms).

How do you say interns can get positive feedback in the limited time they have?

Internships are probably the most valuable experience any budding lawyer can get. In one way or another, they are the stepping stones for a career in law. They show you the practical side of the profession and how the application of the law goes much beyond the course books.

Pro-activity is possibly the most valuable skill that an intern needs to posses. Try and be actively involved with the partner / associates that you are working under. Remember, they get interns every month and recall value is definitely scarce. You have to make the jump out of the page for them to remember you. Especially final year students; if you wish to work with the firm post law school, you will have to walk the extra mile for them to offer you a PPO or a recommendation.

Having worked in the legal recruitment industry what are the challenges you have faced?

Challenges are as wide in this industry as any other. The point of working in a niche can work as an advantage and a challenge as well. The advantage of being a lawyer has helped me work my way into legal recruitment. I can understand the work that one does and has done in the past and how that experience can work well for a potential opportunity that one may be looking for. It is of utmost importance for recruiters to look at both sides of the spectrum. One needs to understand the needs of the lawyer looking at a potential job as well as the recruiter, looking to hire talent for his firm. The gap needs to be filled perfectly or it could pretty much lead to issues for the firm, as well as the young lawyer.

Acquiring talent is a big task for any recruiter. Opportunities, whilst being seasonal, are usually always prevalent in the market. It is the right talent that can be scarce at times. Firms are usually very sure of the qualities that they want in a lawyer (law school, practice areas, experience wise). Getting them the perfect fit is the mark of a good recruiter. We have to remember that the level of trust, shown by a firm looking to hire and a lawyer looking to be placed, are utmost in a recruiter. Challenges are a part of everyday life but, just like any profession, they can be overcome.

What do law firms look for in potential candidates?

Here we go! (If I had penny for every time I was asked this question… you know how it goes.)

Let’s get it straight. Firms are looking for someone who is with them for the long haul. Period! Firms (especially the big ones) in India are built on the core values of their name and legacy. They are looking for professionals who can be nurtured into taking that name forward.

Professionally, the story isn’t very different from any other profession. A strong educational background, the ability to work hard and with a team, diligence, communication skills and of course, patience. The transition phase (especially the first 6-9 months) maybe tougher but the reward has its own charm.

Strong on technicals – the main point of focus. For example; a prospective corporate lawyer should have the acumen for numbers, financials and a strong eye for detail and along with this good knowledge on topics like Contract Law, Sale of Goods Act, Company Law, SEBI Regulations, FEMA, FDI Regulations etc. Similarly, a professional, looking to build a name in the disputes practice needs to be aware of everything around him in the legal environment. Be prepared with important sections of the CPC, CrPC, Constitution, landmark judgments and recent developments in the legal biosphere.

The basic quality that every lawyer needs to possess (and I cannot stress this enough!) is the eye for detail in everything that they read or write. Till date, I have seen so many professionals who are not proficient with drafting and tend to omit so many errors; it’s possibly one of the biggest grey areas for any law firm looking to hire. You need to start from the bottom of the food chain everywhere. Your firm will want to know everything that you are capable of.

What advice would you give to law students / professionals interviewing for law firms?

The one piece of advice that would be the most important (for lawyers across levels);KNOW YOUR CV. Know every word of every line of what you have put on there. For freshers, your internship details are of utmost importance. Know the names of the Partners / Associates that you worked under, the teams, the kind of work and your involvement. For laterals, any transaction / matter that you worked on, your contribution to the same and everything that you have put on your resume. You need to have your CV on your fingertips; if it is on your CV, get ready to be questioned. Keep yourself abreast with all legal developments in the market, especially the ones with a connection to any phrase mentioned on your CV. Apart from academic qualifications; your extra curriculars go a long way in determining your achievements. Moot courts, debates and other activities are equally important to show your development during law school.

Apart from that, know what is happening in the market and of course, know the firm that you are interviewing with. You need to know details about key partners, latest deals and general structure of the firm as questions can be fired from any direction. You need to assure your interviewer that you are the right choice and your knowledge about the firm makes you want to be there. This is about going that extra mile to show your appreciation for their time and consideration. People always look for that spark that would separate you from the others. Be confident in what you answer and do not hesitate in accepting that you may not know something out of the plethora of questions, it is only natural. Be sure to tell them even if you don’t know or are unsure. Be sure to make a note of it and tell them you can research and get back to them with a sure answer. Surety goes a very long way. Be sure of yourself and what you know and you’ve already won half the battle.

What must a law student do to get hired in a top-tier law firm? Any advice on CV building that law students must keep in mind?

Before I answer that, we really need to address one thing for young lawyers and everyone else reading. The mentality of a ‘top-tier’ brand is changing in this ever evolving legal market of ours. Whilst top-tier firms still do rule the roost and deservedly so, many firms operating on a smaller scale (only in terms of number of people) are bringing in meaty work and good clients. These firms (bracketed as mid-sized or boutique firms) are coming up with a strong force and several of them have been started by and employ alumni from leading firms. In terms of quality of work, people employed and even pay-scales, they are very competitive with all other firms and will be a force to reckon with in the near future.

Let’s face it; cut throat competition in the market as of now, is more than it has ever been. With more than 70,000 lawyers graduating every academic year, securing an interview can turn out to be quite a harrowing process. Most firms hire graduates directly from campus or make offers to their star interns. Firms that do come on campus will look for someone whose CV jumps right out of the page to catch their attention. Hence, building a strong CV is the first stepping stone to this process.

On CV building, we need to remain concise. Academics are the foremost factor that people tend to look at on your resume. Your grades need to be consistent and will be considered on priority. Along with grades, a few other factors that may help go a long way:-

Moot Courts – The first insight into a Court environment, the basic reason and intention of organizing moots is to help students develop their research and oratory skills. You should try to actively be a part of inter / intra college moot court competitions. The skills that are put to task here are the ones you need the most in this profession and one can develop them very well.

Research Papers / Publications – Your knowledge on the latest developments in the profession are yet another tool in your artillery. Your knowledge on the information gathered here could easily be one of the biggest advantages in the interview

Organisational Skills –The committees that you were a part of during college, the activities that you took part in. These show a sense of team work which every young professional can use to his / her advantage.

How is the legal landscape in India changing viz a viz the talent needs?

The landscape has changed hugely over the past few years since I have been following it. People are beginning to focus more on the person, rather than their pedigree (which has always been the growing trend). Firms are seeing severe competition in the market and of course, last year was probably one filled with the biggest surprises (and shocks for some) in the industry. Reasons like these alone, are completely twisting the landscape. Since any change can be positive or negative, depending on the perspective, the industry has learnt to adapt with its growing needs. Firms are getting bigger, business is on the constant rise and people are needed. At this point of time, hiring at the senior level is becoming more strategic and there is definite preference for those having their own book of business and good reputation and relationships in the industry. Another interesting point to note is that, at the junior and mid levels, firms are also investing heavily in BD and internal trainings.

Lastly what are your plans for future? What advice would you give to law students wishing to work in the same sector as you?

After having dabbled in so many sectors myself, I feel I found my niche in the legal recruitment business. The plan is to learn and grow with the system which is growing every step of the way. I am glad to have found a platform like Aquis Search, as it is the only search / recruitment firm in the legal and compliance industry in India has with an international network – in both the in-house and private practice space. I am happy to be able to leverage my network and relationships to hopefully bring a positive change in the Indian legal ecosystem.

Guys, success and failure are a part and parcel of the game. Trust me, I’ve been there. Everyone is prone to mistakes and the best part is that it’s never the end of the world. Getting a law firm job or not shouldn’t be on your final list. The profession that we are in, is one of constant growth and learning. One literally can never stop learning here (even if it feels like things are stagnant). Keep making mistakes, learn from them, equip yourself better and move on. The recruitment business is on very similar lines. I feel that my experience in law practice has equipped me with the knowledge to be a decent legal recruiter. For anyone wishing to work in the same field, I’d only say that keep your eyes and ears open. Most importantly, build the best network that you can (a network is what makes or breaks a recruiter). You should enjoy being an all-round people’s person. The work is all about the trust that you gain with your clients and candidates alike so, keep the lines of communication flowing because after all, professionals are trusting you with their careers on the line.

Lastly, as a lawyer or a recruiter, never lose hope. Be confident in your professional abilities and start! The world is out there. Good luck!

Having written columns, articles and short stories for various publications, Kunal Marathe’s first novel was released in January 2011. Now at 26, he is the CEO of Author’s Empire India and has authored two books. More than twenty titles including fiction, non-fiction and poetry have been published under his company’s aegis. Magic Magic is the third book authored by him.

At present he is studying law from Indore Institute of Law.

In this interview he talks to us about:

• His decision to write a novel and the challenges faced as a first time novelist.
• How to create an impressive book trailer.
• How to find a publisher.
• His decision to pursue law.

How did you decide to write your first novel? What were the challenges that you faced?

Frankly speaking, I didn’t write my first novel because I had a story that forced me to write. Rather, I wrote because writing a novel was something I always wanted to. I had a dream of becoming a writer since when I was in school. It was all I ever wanted.

Challenges – there were many. I can write a book on them. Unfortunately in India, when someone dreams of taking writing – or any other art – as his career, it’s never easy. When I started drafting the story of my first novel; I was working in Hotel Taj, Mumbai. I used to work till 12 at night, and then, sit in an open library of Fort area all night to complete my novel. It was tough balancing the job, writing, and then those long traveling hours in Mumbai local. But that was just the beginning of the challenges. In writing and publishing industry, actual challenges begin after you get published.

Tell us something about your upcoming novel ‘Magic Magic’.

Magic Magic is a unique novel – it’s a blend of magic and romance, something that is uncommon for the Indian market. It’s the first book of the series that would revolve around Sikandar, a gifted magician.

The novel has been written by two authors – Mr. Anil Samotiya and I. We have tried to keep it lighthearted, something the young Indian readers prefer. Though Magic is the center theme of the novel, romance and humor are the major elements.

If I want to write a novel, how would I go and find a publisher?

Today in the world of Internet, finding and approaching publishers is not a tough job – however, getting your manuscript selected by them is! Penguin Random House, Rupa Publications, Harper Collins and Westland are some of reputed names. Generally one has to send a synopsis of the novel, along with few sample chapters and a cover letter to the publishers as the first step of submission. However, each of them has some special guidelines, which can be found on their official websites.

In case one fails to get his/her manuscript accepted by the publishers, he/she can opt for paid publishing in which the writer pays to the publisher to get the book published. My publication, Author’s Empire had stopped function around one and half years ago due to some financial issues. However, we have resumed our publishing process and any author can contact us for traditional publishing or paid publishing by simply dropping an email at authorsempire@gmail.com

How can I learn to create an impressive book trailer?

What I have seen especially in India is that 99% of the book trailers being released by the authors are immature works. Never do that. Making an impressive book trailer is a time and money consuming work.

Book trailers can be cinematic; like the one of Magic Magic shown below. Or they can be work of graphics or animation, etc. What you need to understand is that a book trailer is NOT the blurb or synopsis of the book. Many writers simply use the lines from the blurb of the book and form them into the trailer. A book trailer should rather be something that would attract the readers. It’s a medium of marketing – something to compel the reader to buy your book and read it after being watched.

Here’s the link for book trailer of Magic Magic: http://youtube.com/watch?v=q0lywxhODZY

What prompted you to study law despite of writing and publishing being your professional background?

I am studying law not as a career option, I am happy with my current profession – writing and publishing. I am studying law because it has always fascinated me. I guess every citizen should study law – in a college or with the help of good law books. Having the knowledge of law protects you, and it gives you strength to serve your nation and society by acting against the wrong and supporting the right causes.

From where are you studying law?

I had many options in Indore, my hometown. I chose Indore Institute of Law. I was told that they are the best in the city, which proved out to be true. Since I also have writing and publishing to look at, I need constant support from my college to complete the projects and cover the course when I fail to attend some classes. And the professors – and even the Executive Director, Mr. Gaurav Basant Jain – at Indore Institute of Law have always been extremely helpful.

 What would be your advice to our readers?

I would like to keep it short. For those who are studying law, please study it to understand the law completely, not just to get a job! And for every single reader of this marvelous portal, I request you all to read my upcoming novel – Magic Magic, which is available on Amazon.in here.

The Link is: http://www.amazon.in/Magic-Novel-Anil-Samotiya/dp/9383865008/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1459810499&sr=1-1&keywords=magic+magic+a+novel

Anurag Parihar graduated from MATS University in 2014. At present, he is the founder and chief executive officer of Rostrumlegal.com. RostrumLegal.Com is an online e-learning platform for lawyers, law students and anyone who wants to learn law. The company operates with a vision to deliver professional legal education to millions of people from around the world at affordable costs.

In this interview he talks to us about:

• Biggest challenges to start a business.
• How to protect a great idea.
• How to obtain a domain name.
• Online courses helpful in starting a business.

What are the biggest challenges to starting a business?

I think taking the first step is the biggest challenge. I always say this to people that every tom, dick or harry in this world has one or two business ideas which can be worth millions of dollars but no one dares to materialise those ideas. I think each one of us have experienced that moment in life when, after hearing a news about some cool startup, we say that “I had a similar business idea, I should have given it a try…” Taking the first step is a real big deal in starting any kind of business.

There are lot of other things, like commitment towards studies or the job, and pressure from family and friends, which prevent us from taking risks. If you think that your idea can create an impact in changing the way people live their lives, you should definitely give it a try.

How can I protect my great idea?

It might sound a bit hilarious but from my personal experience both as a law student and an entrepreneur I would say that ideas are the only form of intellectual property which cannot be afforded any legal protection. Also, you cannot sue anyone or claim a compensation for stealing your ‘great idea’. In fact, stopping someone from pursuing the same kind of business as yours can prove to be unlawful and anti-competitive.

If you have a great business idea in mind and you have fully convinced yourself to start your journey to become the next Steve Jobs or Elon Musk of the industry, it would be a very good thing to share and discuss your idea with as many people as you can to take positive inputs to start. A suggestion from an unknown fellow passenger in a local train can also prove to be helpful in realising your billion-dollar dream!

Once you have started or when you are already in the business, you can utilise a lot of legal routes to protect the things which are important to your business. Those things can be your logo, the name of your business, software codes, designs or your secret fried chicken masala (it’s better not to spill such secret)!

How can I obtain the domain name I want?

I think choosing the right domain name for starting a website or a blog is really important to create a good online presence. Domain names can be very crucial if the business is targeting online users. To choose a domain name one should keep in mind that it should be a unique web address. Also, at the same point of time it should be very general to the industry you are doing your business in. Following this suggestion can help businesses or blogs to get organic traffic from search engines. This can be really helpful in contributing towards the growth of the business especially in early days. The perfect example for such type of domains can be housing.com or conferencealerts.com.

There are a lot of websites which sell domains and provide other web hosting services. It is advised to go with a big brand and since these service providers sometimes offer great deal on domains and hosting packages, one should do a proper research before buying to crack the best deal. Also, it should be noted that setting up an ecommerce store or a blog is very easy, there are several articles available on the web which can help you in learning to do so.

How much should I capitalize my business with at the beginning?

The amount of investment needed while starting the business completely depends on the type of business. Some types of businesses can be started at the cost of very small or zero investment. A YouTube channel or a Facebook page sharing funny posts to make people laugh can be turned into a profitable business, the cost of starting such things is practically nothing. A small e-commerce website or a blog, publishing articles on topics like 10 things to not, can be started at a cost of less than 5000 Rupees.

On the other hand, there are lot of capital intensive businesses, like a restraint or a manufacturing company, which can require a lot of investment at the beginning itself. A business can be started either with no money or with a lot of investment but it is very important to plan the budget and the source of income for a long run to manage some of necessary spending in future.

Where can I get money for my business?

Investment is a very important ingredient for growth or expansion of a business. There are a lot of options available for entrepreneurs to raise funds. Some of the important sources include an angel funding, or a funding from a venture capital fund. Two of these are can be simply differentiated by the amount of money they invest in your start up. The former is an investing company often managed by few people known as angel investors who invest significantly less amount of money when compared to venture capital funds which are usually giant corporations managing a huge pool of money. There are lot of schemes run by government and various public and private sector banks which offer collateral free loans to small and medium scale companies on a lucrative interest rates.

There are other creative options to raise money like crowd funding where a startup can raise money from general public by simply posting their business plan on crowdfunding website and offering exclusive launch benefits to the investors. There are a lot of competitions which select infant startups and provide them with mentorship and a small amount of initial funding. There are a lot of startup incubators which look for promising early stage startups.

The amount of money available as compared to the requirement of startups is very less. Only one in a 100 startup is able to attract investors to provide funding. Not only the business idea, but a lot of factors contribute in making a startup attractive to the investors. And, last but not the least, the revenue generated by the business is also an important source of funding.

How should equity be divided among co-founders of a startup?

I think that this is the toughest question in the interview and also one of the most confusing decision an entrepreneur has to take in his life.The equity can be divided by looking into various factors like the type of responsibilities each founder has. Such responsibilities can include the development of the product, investing initial capital, formulating and refining the business idea, marketing, business development etc. Sometimes it is good to take advice from a third party who is close to all the founders, knows the business and is not interested in the business of the company.

It is also important for the founders to enter into a founder’s agreement which decides the share of equity each founder gets and also enlists the responsibility of each of the founders. The agreement should also accommodate plans to include team members and investors who will join the company in future. There a lot of articles, blog posts and tutorial videos which can be referred to gain a clear understanding on this area.

What online resources are helpful for learning more about starting a business?

Several types of free resources are available, both online and offline, to learn about the ways of doing business. Just ask google if you are stuck on something and you will surely find the solution to your problem.

There are a lot of websites like Forbes, Tech Crunch and Entrepreneur who publish a lot of articles on important issues. Also, there are lot You Tube channels who publish videos to help entrepreneur. I would recommend following ‘Google for Entrepreneurs’. It is also advised to know about the life of entrepreneurs and other type of leaders. One can also watch movies and read books to get inspired!

I would recommend people to watch my latest favourite movies ‘Steve Jobs’ (2015) and ‘The Big Shorts’ (2015). Also,If you are looking for a step by step guide to start a business, you can read ‘The 100 Dollar Startup’ by Chris Guillebeau.

Ketan Mukhija graduated from NALSAR, Hyderabad in the year 2007. He has worked in foreign law firms like Jones Day and Herbert Smith. Thereafter, he returned to India and worked with two Indian law firms at responsible positions. At present, he works as the Senior Vice President (Legal) of SREI Infrastructure Finance Limited, one of the largest infrastructure financing firms in India.

In this interview Ketan talks about:

• His career trajectory from working in US & UK and then to India
• Working in an in-house position as a career option for young lawyers
• Structure of an in-house legal team in a large company
• Role of an in-house counsel
• Skillsets required to work in an in-house position

Click here to read our earlier interview with Ketan.

Please share with us your journey so far.

It is has been a fascinating journey so far.

After graduating from NALSAR, I started working in the western hemisphere and slowly and gradually, moved towards the eastern. I commenced my career with a firm called Jones Day which is an International Law Firm (ILF) based out of the United States, and has multiple offices across the world. I was working as part of the Merger & Acquisitions and Strategic Alliances team there. Thereafter I moved to Herbert Smith Freehills (HSF) in London. I got a dual qualification to practice as a solicitor in England & Wales within the United Kingdom.

At HSF, I was working with Equity Capital Market Division, and got an excellent opportunity to work on big transactions. I was involved in the acquisition deal of Land Rover and Jaguar by Tata, which was a tremendous experience. While working for HSF, I had also advised Bradford and Bingley, which is UK’s biggest buy-to-let lender. The recession had just set in, so we represented and advised Bradford and Bingley on tracing of capital, drafting of prospectuses and related documentation.

Thereafter, owing to personal reasons, I had to shift to New Delhi where I worked for a relatively short stint with two firms, Vaish Associates and Luthra & Luthra Law Offices in senior positions. It was a good experience because working for Indian clients was different where the work areas are generaI as far as the corporate area is concerned. In US and UK, we have very focused and super-specialized areas. In Indian firms, you pretty much pick up a generalist experience and set of transactions. Accordingly, the major areas that I worked on included corporate restructuring, PIPE transactions, private equity, banking finance and energy infrastructure. Overall, I got a good all-round experience at both firms following which I got the opportunity to work with SREI Infrastructure Finance Limited as the Sr. Vice President (Legal, Corporate Strategy and Planning).

SREI Group is one of the largest infrastructure financing conglomerates in India, having assets worth USD3 billion approx under its management and with almost over hundred entities as sister concerns. It is a huge group which is being held and managed under the auspices of the Kanoria Foundation.

Many young lawyers want to become in-house counsels and are opting to work as in-house counsels directly after law school. How do you see this as a career path?

There are a few things which we have to bear in mind. There is some form of uniformity and inconsistency in terms of working in law firms. On the other hand, an in-house counsel has to be flexible according to the organization he/she wants to work with. In the M&A division or capital markets division of any other big firm, the type of work is somewhat on similar lines, depending on the transaction at hand. However, each company has a different structure. The philosophy of a company, organization, structural configuration and the hierarchy will be very different from that of a law firm. Before I shed some light on the content side or the method side, a word of advice for people who aspire to be an in-house counsel, they should do some background research on the type of company they want to work for. In the past, companies used to look for a person who had 15-25 years of experience in the same industry. However, that is changing. Young lawyers are being recruited by companies who are creating immense value and changing the traditional setup.

It is important to note that, as an in-house counsel, you must know that your role will be more than just a legal adviser; you will be given a much-diversified responsibility which may not be strictly legal in nature. Here, the client is your financial team, commercial team and you are not catering to the entire world but ensuring that there is organic or inorganic growth within the organization, and you undertake the roles of a dispute preventor, cost controller and the right business partner in the literal sense. So, you should keep all the aforementioned points in mind before joining a company as an in-house counsel.

If you want to generalize the structure of an in-house legal team in a  large company, how will you do that?

With the caveat, that no two organisations have the same structure. I would like to give an example from the structure in the SREI Group. Under SREI Group, for every legal entity, there is a corporate legal and corporate compliance at each level because the regulator mandates these. A listed company needs to comply with several regulations by different regulators. There is constant interaction with Security Exchange Board of India (SEBI), which supervises all major activities of a company. If there is an acquisition or a potential change in the management of a listed company, everything has to be regularly and periodically intimated to SEBI and the stock exchange where the company is listed. Therefore, the compliance divisions ensure the conformity with the regulators and the RBI. The SREI Group is regulated by the RBI as an infrastructure finance company (IFC). So, we have a lot of interaction with the RBI on fairly regular basis. It is crucial to have a compliance division to ensure that we comply with the existing legal and regulatory framework.

Almost all companies have a risk management team. The risk management team usually takes the form of an internal audit or a legal audit division. As a company with multiple associate/subsidiary entities, it has to ensure that the internal contractual arrangements and shareholding is managed properly, and there exists a system of checks and balances between the various entities at all levels to ensure that you are minimizing risks at every stage. So, the risk management division assumes a lot of importance.

There is also a corporate legal at each entity level. On a daily basis, in an operative contract division, there are employment contracts, non-disclosure agreements, term sheets, securities documentation, memorandum of understanding and collaboration agreements which the corporate team needs to look at and thoroughly negotiate with the counterparties.

A financial institution has many recovery matters, possession matters, civil matters, DRT matters, risk management, compliance, internal audit, etc, so it is important to have a robust litigation division.

Moreover, at the group level, you have a strategy and planning team that drives and co-ordinates with all the aforementioned divisions.  It is the strategy team which drives the processes substantively across these 4-5 teams. The set up is mature in our organization but it varies with every organization, but this is typically what I have seen in Indian multinational corporations.

What is the role of an in-house counsel in an organisation? How is it different from working in a law firm?

The role of a general counsel is in the nature of a true business partner who works as a i) preemptive risk mitigator, ii) cost controller for legal expenses and iii) remedy agent in case there is a legal issue. A General Counsel has a role which is similar to a general physician, who would identify the issues in hand and should be able to guide the business functions in a right direction in case of any legal issues, rather than implementing every function himself/ herself.

It is important to understand what the scope, ambit and role of an in-house counsel look like. There can be various divisions and verticals in the legal department. You have to involve yourself in the strategic decision-making process of the organization and for that, you need to know the legal risks and help streamline the processes within the organization to ensure that the key issues and the legal matters are being monitored and scrutinized. Then you have to take the strategic decisions keeping in mind the philosophy and the interests of the organization. So one of the key things is actual to be in coordination with the management of the company or the business heads of the company to ensure that all the decisions are taken by keeping in mind the legal risk that can potentially arise. You have to work on commercial transactions with external counsels and law firms to help us on an ad-hoc or retainer basis. If you have a defined skill set, you have to wear the business hat and think like a business head and try to create value at each step. It is important that as an in-house counsel, you should have the ability or skillsets required to set up the right structures to achieve a high level of operational efficiency and continuous improvement of organization and business, the methods ensuring incorporation of the best practices, creating awareness, development of functional centres of excellence and the ability to work under pressure. As an in-house counsel, you should be in a position to handle critical issues which are sensistive or confidential in nature. You have to be fully equipped, informed and in a position to handle that. So the idea is to integrate the legal advice with the business requirement and create value for the organisation. A person has to be a generalist, must have good grasping power, has to be flexible because litigation can change colors tomorrow. Working in an in-house role can be very different from working in a law firm. In a law firm, you might work on one area of law throughout your life, but the variety of work in an in-house function is extremely wide. You have to be very flexible and good to learn and grasp so that you can learn about the collaboration between the corporation office and various group companies optimizing the value of the corporate entity.

What are the skills sets required to become an In-House Counsel?

The skill sets have to be both technical and soft skills. You must have the judicious amalgam of the soft skills as well which is very much required because you will be dealing with very stringent timelines and some unexpected kind of pushbacks. When you are dealing with non-lawyers and people from other departments, you will have to be slightly more versatile and more efficiency oriented to ensure that they understand the tone of your language. It is important that you understand both their business requirement and you convey your legal provisions. This is one of the key skillsets that one must possess if they want to work in an in-house role.

The organization will go on forever, and no person is indispensable in an organization. So it is important to standardize the procedure and processes in line with the business requirements to ensure efficiency and seamless delivery of advisory legal opinion. It is important to have standard points, or starting points or denominators or basis, wherein the position or philosophy of the company is clearly laid down. Those philosophies guide the operations and decision making over the years. So standardization and uniformization are very important.

It is also crucial to have the ability to drive the processes, because deriving economic value and savings for the organization by bringing in the subject matter expertise and skill sets can only make meaning when you have a high level of operational efficiency.

For example, if a company wants to embark on an M&A transaction, the law firms will be doing a set of documentation, the technical team and other teams will be doing their own due diligence and submit their report. Everybody has his or her compartmentalized job of work customized to the transaction. However, as a sole point of contact with all stakeholders, you as an in-house counsel should be able to soak all the information from everyone, give it the right shape and ensure that they mold and cast well in the framework that you want.

You need to stay updated with the latest changes in the position of law so that you can give the best perspective advice from a commercial perspective to the top management.

What should be the role of a legal head in case of a regulatory vacuum/ grey areas in law?

While advising the business verticals to act on areas where there are regulatory vacuum or grey areas, a general counsel has the role to pre-empt the risk in a calculated manner and put the same before the business verticals. However, in cases where the existing legal framework is inadequate or fails to meet the current market scenario, it will be important to put forward the problem with the government agencies, either through industry bodies/ associations like ASSOCHAM or individually. Whenever a new law is proposed, generally the government provides a window period of 60-90 days during which the stakeholders can voice their concerns about the new law. It is important that the problem or concerns are clearly identified and proposed solutions are put forward in such cases. These solutions can be based on industry best practices around the world or based on ground realities or the market sentiments.

Please give your views about the trend in the Indian companies on having a large in-house legal team.

The trend is towards having a robust in-house function as well. The mantra of any firm is to increase their revenue and decrease the cost. I think having a robust in-house team works much better for me than hiring a law firm every now and then because that is an expensive affair. If you have a good in-house team, then the cost can be curtailed quickly and to a large extent. Because, when you talk about International Law firms, for a simple agreement they will charge you huge amounts. Now, if you have equipped lawyers who have global exposure and are good negotiators, I think they can play a role both in increasing revenue as well as cost preventers to a colossal extent. It is important to have in-house experts in finance, investment, taxation laws who can form the right opinion. One can take help of external consultants, when the volume is huge or when the work needs to be done at different locations, and it is not possible for the internal team to be present at different places. The idea should be to ensure that the person understands the business because that is where it adds value. Consultants will come as an outsider, but here you know the aspirations and expectations and can lead the best optimal advice. So I think the trend is very encouraging, fruitful and also sinks with the simple market logic. It aligns the incentives and disincentives of the promoters. So it is a market-driven kind of move.

Is there any other aspect you would like to add on to the discussion?

The role of a General Counsel or a Senior Corporate Counsel is also that of a behavior analyst of the corporate systems. Now there are so many rules to manage the entire litigation, rules to manage the complete compliance kind of platform, rules to administer the contracts. You have to make use of the technology, behavioral skills, core competencies, evolve right system of checks and balances within the organization, and I think that’s the requisite kind of skill sets. and I can probably end by saying that today’s evolving business scenario in the changing market, the role of a corporate counsel is very meaningful in the sense that they are becoming the true partners of the business unit and the company and, to drive the strategy towards higher growth, development, higher bottom lines and top lines. The role of a General Counsel is critical because he work at every stage with CFO, CIO, CMO, and CTO and acts as the point person for the top management. It is important that he gives the right advice to the top management which would drive the strategy for the company. In today’s scenario the role of a general counsel looks very promising.

Jyoti Singh studied law at Maharshi Dayanand University and graduated in 2000. She worked for a while at Dhir & Dhir Associates as a Principal Associate and is now a Partner at Phoenix Legal.

In this interview Jyoti talks to us about:

• The reasons behind her career choices
• Her experiences and learning curve while working with Mr. Jugal Wadhwa and Dhir & Dhir Associates.
• Her views on the current legal education system

How would you introduce yourself, given that most of our readers are law aspirants, lawyers-in-the-making & young lawyers?

I am a lawyer who hails from Sonipat, a small city in Haryana, and currently a partner at a well-reputed firm thanks to my self-confidence, hard word, sincerity, and dedication.

Which incidents, influences or interests prompted you to think of law as a career? If not law, what other options would you have considered for a career?

My father currently practices in Sonipat and I have always seen him working very hard. He still wakes up at 4:00 a.m. and reads his briefs. His lifestyle used to fascinate me. But frankly, I had science as my subject in my 12^th Standard. While I was taking up exams for pursuing a career in medicine, but after a detailed discussion with him about my future plans and career choices he ended by telling me that, “You argue so much, I feel you will make a good lawyer”. I laughed it off. But today I surely am a lawyer, though still trying to be a “good one”.

How would you describe your academic career while at M.D.U, Rohtak? What made you want to pursue an LL.M after your graduation from the same?

I was one of those students in M.D.U., who probably never bunked a class but still had my own share of fun at hostel. I used to take part in debates and essay writings etc. I pursued a LL.M because I like studying, and frankly while choosing “Winding up by Courts” as a topic of my dissertation I never imagined that one day I would be ranked as a leading lawyer in Dispute Resolution and Insolvency (Ranked by Chambers and Partners 2015 and 2016).

Did you indulge in any co-curricular activities such as debating or mooting while there?

I participated in debates and moot parliament etc.

What made you target a litigant’s practice straight out of law school?

My father was and is my inspiration, he is a litigant so it came to me naturally.

What would you say are the greatest learnings from your time spent with Mr. Jugal Wadhwa?

In terms of law and procedure, it was an enriched legal experience where his knowledge of the same helped systematically build my foundations of law. While practising in the district courts and the High Court of Delhi, it exposed me to both the procedure and the original side of litigation itself.

How did first-hand exposure to the legal system in all its glory affect or influence you?

The deeper I went into the profession, the more I was convinced that this is what I want to do all my life.

What prompted the shift to Dhir & Dhir Associates? How did your experience there differ from your earlier experiences?

With Mr. Jugal Wadhwa, I gained a lot of experience in civil and criminal litigation after which I wanted to shift to a law firm. At Dhir & Dhir, I worked with a team specialising in proceedings at AAIFR and High Courts, and slowly started looking after work at various High Courts. The travel intensive nature of my work there increased my exposure to the same.

Why the special interest in Banking and Finance Litigation with a special focus on proceedings under SICA and Insolvency proceedings?

Dhir and Dhir has been a leading Firm in that area of law, hence it was only natural to have focused on SICA and insolvency proceedings.

Again, when and why did you decide to join Phoenix Legal in 2010?

Phoenix started in 2008 with a set of very dynamic professionals. I wanted to join a firm where I could grow with the Firm. I joined Phoenix, Mumbai office, in October 2010 as a Counsel and was made partner in April 2011.

How did your previous experiences help you or influence you through the same?

It helped be set up and grow through a litigation practice.

Your current profile seems fairly commercial and finance-centric under a larger purview of corporate law, how did you come to chose the same as your area of interest?

I would say that I started as a general litigant and I still do a fair bit of civil, contractual pre-litigation strategy and litigation/ arbitration. But, corporate, banking, and finance have been my core strength due to my extensive experience in these fields (be it advisory or disputes/ recovery).

What has your experience in dealing with foreign companies been like? How do they differ, if at all, from local clients?

Foreign companies are more professional in their approach but now the local companies are also reaching there.

What would you describe the work atmosphere as? How does the same play out in terms of work load and cooperation among those working with you?

Work atmosphere plays a very important role because you spend a majority of your time at the workplace. If your colleagues are helpful and seniors are motivating, then it surely acts as a catalyst in facilitating the growth of any individual and the organisation as well, because I believe that “Happy and successful Employees make a Happy and successful Organisation”.

How taxing would you describe your work as, does it afford time for a life outside the office?

I love what I do and I can’t see myself doing anything else. I am passionate about my work and hence it’s not taxing at all. I am an early riser, so I get my share of “me” time and remain much contended with that.

Looking back, how different would your experience have been if you were at a national law university?

Education systems makes a lot of difference. Surely there would have been a lot of value added.

What is your opinion of the current legal education system for law students given the internship and material intensive five or three year programmes? How does the same affect your hiring policy?

I really like the current education system. I see interns at my firm. Some of them “are very good lawyers in making”. We, in fact, sometimes absorbs interns as associates because we have first hand experience of their ability and attitude. I personally, in my team, have a few such examples of individuals who had interned with me and are/were working as associate.

If you were a law student today, would you do anything differently? If so, what would it be and why?

Yes, certainly. I would have done internships during my law course because getting exposed to practical side of law while gaining knowledge of the theory acts as a stimulant in becoming a good lawyer.

What would your parting advice be to our readers?

Work hard! Read Hard! Make books your best friend!

Manisha Chaudhary graduated in law from Amity Law School, Noida in 2012. She went on to pursue her LL.M. from Cornell Law School, focusing on corporate laws. She is now the Managing Partner at UKCA and Partners (formerly UKCA Law Chambers).

In this interview, Manisha discusses:

• Her childhood experiences that pushed her towards choosing law as a career.
• Her considerations while choosing the best university to do an LL.M.
• The methodology she uses to research and write articles
• Her views on the legal education system in India

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

I am presently the Managing Partner at UKCA and Partners (formerly UKCA Law Chambers), a law firm founded in the year 1986 by my father, Mr. U. K. Chaudhary, an eminent Senior Advocate. He had to disassociate from the firm when he was designated as a senior and the firm passed on to his juniors.

Tell us about your childhood and pre-college life. Was it always your dream to be in legal profession?

The first question I usually get asked when I meet someone is “So, when did you decide to be a lawyer?” And honestly, my answer usually is “Ummm, I was born to be one!”

My parents had always encouraged my brother and I to follow our dreams (even if we fell flat on our faces, they were always there to support us). My parents thought that I would take up medicine as a profession, and as a matter of chance I was great at all the science subjects. However, during school, I took keen interest in debating, dramatics, creative writing, the book club, and such related co-curricular activities, which I assumed would help me expand my intellectual abilities. I am sure if Philosophy was a subject in high school, I would have been the first to enrol.  For me, it has always been about gathering information and being fully informed on various subjects, even if it may be of no concern in my life or to me. My closest friends call me Ms. FYI – For your Information! As a child, I would have my parents sign illegible handwritten contracts to make sure I get paid in cash or kind for the chores I had done (which were often repudiated by my mother!). I would sit in my father’s office for hours reading law books at random, which at the time made no coherent sense to me; sibling disputes were handled in the High Court of Mother and I would put across detailed arguments on how I had been wronged and have my brother pay compensation. So far as I remember, I would bolt to our front gate to get the High Court ‘Cause List’ to find my father’s name, read his files and point out the grammatical mistakes (concepts of legal English were lost on me) and organise the office files and Bare Acts. I would strut into his office and take dictation from his juniors and then type it out for them, which they sportingly let me do.

I truly believe that the inclinations towards the right subjects, an inquisitive attitude towards life, and the constant need to learn and try new things, are inherent qualities of every lawyer and the very fact that I declared myself to be a future ‘financial’ lawyer to all my near and dear ones in the 8^th grade did it in for me.

What led you to choose legal profession?

Whenever someone sought advice from my parents whether one should pursue a career in law, they would categorically say the following:

1. The profession requires hard work, dedication and perseverance.
2. You will have to constantly read, study, and keep yourself up-to-date for the rest of your life.
3. You may have to give work priority over family and friends, and finding a balance will be a challenge every day.
4. You will always be busy and rushing everywhere.
5. There is no retirement.

After hearing this, I was instantly hooked.

Tell us about your experience in Amity law School. What all curricular and extra-curricular activities did you participate in?

Amity Law School, Noida was in its infancy when I joined. There were not many rules and regulations which barred us from enjoying the ‘Delhi University’ style college life. However, within a year or so, everything settled down and Amity became like any other law school, with the added advantage of foreign educated faculty and international level infrastructure. Amity was and is notorious for being elitist and grandiose but lacking in terms of quality education. However, I beg to differ. Amity is much more than scoring marks, preparing for moots and planning to be an associate in a big law firm. It is a wholesome college experience. Since it is one huge campus for all departments, there are many inter-departmental competitions, festivals, sports meets etc. that gives a young student the opportunity to not only learn their subjects but also learn from other streams. While at Amity, I actively participated in intra-class debates, inter-college competitions, essay competitions, a few national level moots, went on court visits, helped organise events etc. I even participated in cricket and volleyball matches! Since every class at Amity was more or less a group discussion, staying on top of the subject was important. Amity truly teaches you how to survive in a cutthroat world and to bring your ‘A game’ at all times.

You hold a masters degree in law from the prestigious Ivy League school Cornell University. How well did your experiences there prepare you for your current responsibilities?

I aspired to apply only to Ivy League institutions and hence all my efforts in law school and at work were to make sure to have the minimum requirements of marks, moot competitions, publications, work experience, court appearances and professional growth. I worked fulltime for two years because I wanted to have at least a basic knowledge of corporate laws before specialising in the subjects that I accordingly elected. I know that many people prefer to apply for their masters right out of law school, and do exceedingly well. However, I differ on this approach. I believe it is important to gain some work experience prior to applying as it helps you determine what field of law you would like to specialise in. Most of my classmates had previously worked as lawyers or paralegals and it gave me the opportunity to learn from them.

Cornell is known to be a relatively easy Ivy to get admission into but the most difficult to graduate from. The courses are multi-dimensional and challenging. All the subjects I pursed at Cornell were specialised topics, and were taught by professionals from New York City and seasoned professors. To truly learn, it is important to not just sit in class and take notes, but to actively engage with the professors and lecturers and to pick their brains.  I sincerely think that I would not have been able to truly extract the essence of the courses, if I had no previous work experience in the same field.

Having experience gave me the ability to compare what I know to what I was learning and hence I could discuss with other students and professors how to grow professionally and overcome the challenges faced at work. The exchange was mutual ofcourse, because I was able to help my classmates understand the Indian legal system and clarify many of their doubts as well. While at Cornell, I gave a lecture on the Indian Constitution and had students and professors attend the same. It was a feeling of humble pride and an ecstatic high. Cornell does not grade its LL.M. students but rather offers “comments” such as Unsatisfactory (meaning that you have to take the course again), Satisfactory, Honours and High Honours. They believe that since master’s students are scholars they cannot be judged, as there is no “right” or “wrong” interpretation of law. This experience of formulating an opinion on a subject of law and having the same appreciated, even if no one agrees with it, genuinely gives one a tremendous sense of achievement.

How should one assess their LL.M. program? What are the key factors to be kept in mind while applying for LL.M. in different universities?

First, an LL.M. program or college should not be solely evaluated on the rankings given by various news agencies. The statistics are based on a variety of factors, which can be highly manipulated and hence are not the best tool for assessment. Second, it is important to speak to Alumni, who can guide you and offer you the best advice regarding the school and the course. Third, do a comparison of colleges on factors which are important to you. For example, Yale is an excellent law school but I did not think it was a good fit for me because it is more academically inclined and I wished for a college which is more inclined towards the industry. Fourth, consider your long-term goals. Before choosing your college of choice, you need to establish the reasons why you wish to pursue an LL.M., how it will help you achieve your career goals, what are its post qualification prospects, etc. Fifth, thoroughly research the faculty, the class size, internal policies regarding LL.M. students, how courses are allotted etc. Cornell and Yale have an average of 80 persons per LL.M. batch whereas NYU has an average of 400, hence the classes you wish to take may not be available to you. You can best assess an LL.M. course by reading up on it and speaking to the Alumni, who are more than willing to help. Do not be afraid to ask questions, even if they seem condescending, after all, you are spending a huge amount of resources on an LL.M. degree. To apply for an LL.M. course keep the following “Cs” in mind:

1. Cost– it is very important because an LL.M. does not guarantee you a dream job, and hence it is important to have your funding in place. In case you plan to take loans, then a plan to clear your debts is important.
2. Course– do a thorough analysis of the subjects offered and whether they are in sync with what you would want to specialise in and the future prospects of the same.
3. Country– United States of America and the United Kingdom are not the only two countries, which are popular for LL.M. courses. Many students choose to go to Continental Europe or the Middle East to truly expand their horizons in their chosen field of law.

Once you have these three figured out, the rest is easy. It will all fall in place once you get there and you will make lifelong memories.

Presently you are Managing Partner at UKCA. What falls within the scope of your responsibility?

Being a Managing Partner of a firm that is constantly growing is full of challenges. We have a very simple internal structure and I am thankful to each of my employees, associates, and partners for helping me execute my vision for the firm. My foremost responsibility is to consolidate the interests of everyone in the firm and make a comprehensive plan for implementation. Being a Managing Partner also puts me in the shoes of a business owner and hence I make monthly goals for my formidable team to work on. Meeting new clients and promoting the firm is my second responsibility and one that I am constantly learning and improving on. My third responsibility is to oversee finances, appraisals and compliances of the firm. I am also involved in administrative aspects of the firm and look into procurements, subscriptions, memberships, disputes etc. However, my most vital responsibility is to each of my clients and hence every document which goes out of my firm is vetted and finalised by me. Though I can blindly trust my principal associates and partners to settle every document, I believe it also my duty to be personally involved in every matter and be available to clients with full attention to details of their transactions and litigations. I attend most court hearings and am always present on deal closings to assist my clients and my associates and partners.

While hiring new lawyers what kind of skills you look for in their CV.

The portion of any CV that I disregard is what law school the student is from. It is in my experience the worst measure of how good a lawyer is. The skills I am most interested in are work experience and drafting-research. No law firm is looking to hire first year associates for arguments in courts or lead negotiations and close deals. When hiring fresh law graduates, I want to see their results in moot court competition, creative writing skills and their personalities, whether they will be good fit for the firm and whether they have what it takes to survive long hours and hard work. The next portion to get my attention is usually grades as that can be a decent marker of your basic knowledge and learning skills. I then focus on languages and diversity the person may bring to the firm. If you pass these three criteria, you will be invited for an interview. A job at my law firm depends on the interview with the partners and other assignments which we will ask you to undertake.

You hold certificate in Corporate Law and Governance from the renowned London School of Economics and Political Science, United Kingdom. How far are these certificate courses helpful? Tell us about the experience.

Certificate courses, if used as a tool for continuing education, can be of great significance in the field of law one specialises in. Certified courses abroad can be in the form of summer school or standalone courses depending on what time of the year you apply. It is a great learning experience apart from being a mini vacation where you make new friends from various countries and different walks of life. In my LSE class, we had finance graduates, lawyers, CEOs, directors of companies, accountants, economists etc. The class was engaging and helped us get a sneak peak of problems faced by professionals in many countries and how we could learn from each other’s experiences. Certificate courses as a supplement to further your knowledge are a great tool and I would suggest a refresher ever so often, whether in India or abroad.

You are an avid writer and have published various articles. How would you advise students to go about their careers with respect to research and writing, publishing grade academic papers?

I consider publications to be an integral part of a student’s education and a lawyer’s career. Be it writing books, articles, presentations, or even comments on various blogs; it helps hone their research and writing skills. Every student or young lawyer should follow a systematic approach in their own way to writing articles, which will help to get the articles published. Also try to collaborate with seniors or other co-authors to write books, columns, blogs etc. The more publications you have, the greater the impression that you have what it takes to be a scholar or an expert. All colleges prefer students who have published work as it helps them gauge a person’s intellect to a certain level.

I have written many articles (published and otherwise), prepared presentations for clients, prepared lectures to deliver at seminars for both myself and my father, and I have a very specific, stepwise approach to them all. I have to confess that I am truly a Google junkie. My first step is to ‘Google’ all the information on a subject and read as much as I can, both positive and negative comments, articles etc. to thoroughly understand a topic. The next step in my research is usually news articles available on the internet, and then I move on to articles and presentations by other professionals. All this helps me in getting a general idea of the topic. From here starts the actual process of research. I then peruse the Bare Acts on the subject to interpret the legislative intent and form my own views and opinion on the sections. Next I read the amendments, rules, circulars, and notifications etc. to make sure that nothing important has been overlooked. I also look up any proposed amendments, which may further help me understand the true intent of the law. I then go on to debate every point with my father. I am lucky to have an expert on corporate laws right at home and since it’s my chosen field of practice, I fully exploit every opportunity, though sometimes I am shown the door! Once I have decided on what my hypothesis on a certain subject is, I go on to read scholarly articles, both Indian and international, to understand how I may or may not differ from others. I also research case laws, which may be applicable or made applicable on my hypothesis of a certain subject. My research is usually complete at this stage and now begins the difficult part to put together all the research into a written form. Once I have written an article, I go through it repeatedly to make sure that there is a gradual flow of information and that is no diversion from the main issue at hand. Before submission, I do a plagiarism check, which points out any flaws my article may have. A few points to be kept it mind before submission are– always source you articles, try to be as original as possible, use precedents and do a proper edit for spellings and grammar.

You have been regular guest lecturer at various law schools. How is the curriculum of a foreign law school different from an Indian one? What changes, if any, would you like to see in Indian legal curriculum?

It saddens me to say that the Indian curriculum for law schools is very dated and impractical for today’s legal profession. The curriculum has been the same for the last few decades with minor changes and focuses mostly on the theoretical aspects of law, majority of which is not relevant for practice. Though some changes have been introduced such as moot courts, projects, and internships, there is still a vast scope for improvement. The quality of the profession is greatly affected due to lack of quality education. I believe we need a complete overhaul of the subjects being taught at law schools. I also believe that teachers, lecturers and professors have to conduct more clinics to teach students the art of presenting arguments, negotiations, trial advocacy, deal closing, preparing transactional documents etc. This will prepare the students for the profession and greatly improve the quality of lawyers.

The curriculum at foreign law schools is also theoretical but is limited to only a few subjects. What I admire most about foreign law schools is the focus they have on how to make a student an asset for the profession. They make sure that a student who has graduated knows the profession and only has to start polishing themselves to become an expert. In India the approach is to push you into the profession and have you learn on the job, which is not beneficial for every student. I know so many young lawyers who give up litigation or transactional practice because they cannot deliver the quality of work their seniors expect of them. There is tremendous scope for students to elect subjects, which specialise in a certain area of law, such as laws for technology start-ups, laws for ethical hacking, laws for crowd funding, documentation for leveraged buyouts, preparing IPO documentation, investment banking etc. Such subjects need to be taught to give Indian students a level playing field with their counterparts abroad. We should also encourage inter-disciplinary courses where law students along with management students, bankers, engineering students or business students come together to solve complex transactional issues and learn to work on deals which will require understanding and cooperation between different professions. The Indian legal education system needs a more robust, dynamic and diverse curriculum to be of any use to new age lawyers or else we will be left far behind our global counterparts.

You have also been providing pro bono services to social enterprises and start-ups. What is the source of motivation?

I have been inclined to work towards certain causes relating to the environment, women and children, which have been close to my heart since high school. I provide free legal aid to social enterprises and start-ups that are working in the same field. If I am not able to help, I connect them with my friends who may be able to do so. I sincerely believe that our country has every resource to become a great nation. However, we lack the collective will to do anything about it. The motivation is to make a difference to the society in order to make it better for us all. Social enterprises and many start-ups, including NGOs are working day in and day out to help those who are less fortunate and I wish to be of some help, to the best of my abilities, in their struggle. If I can help them save legal costs, which could sponsor another tube well, or educate a young child, then why not!

What would be your advice to our budding lawyers?

I have some very simple advice:

1. Research like your life depends on it. Do not open your mouth unless you have research to back up you arguments or legal opinion. Try to be informed and updated on a daily basis.
2. Draft, re-draft and then re-draft again, thinking about each possible consequence of every sentence that you have written. Think not only from your client’s perspective but also from that of the opposition. Be honest and fair to the courts. Do not suppress any document or information.
3. Be organised at all times. Deadlines have been given for a reason and priorities have to be set.
4. Do not be disrespectful to juniors, seniors, judges, staff, etc. Maintain decorum in court and in office. Do not get personal, and lay yourself open to perennial criticism.
5. Be ethical. No client or their money, position, or fame is more important than your allegiance to the profession.
6. Be loyal to your employer and your clients who took a risk with you and give them your best at all times. However, you deserve to be treated with respect and do not let anyone make you believe otherwise.
7. Try to learn from your seniors without disturbing them. Keep your ears and eyes open and you will pick up on many tricks of the trade.
8. Do not try to be Ms. or Mr. Know-It-All. Even seniors with 40 years of experience do not know it all! Do what you are good at and strive to be better with each day.
9. Bunker down, and do not be afraid to work late nights and long hours. You will reap benefits of your hard work.
10. Enjoy being a lawyer, and take it as your life’s passion not as a bread earner, It is an admired profession but if you do not love it, leave now else you will always be miserable.

Pooja Terwad graduated in B.L.S.LL.B from Mumbai University in 2012. Thereafter, she went for LL.M from Jindal Global Law School. She got an excellent opportunity to visit Maurer School of Law and work there as a Research Associate for a semester as a part of a fully paid scholarship programme from JGLS.

Recently she founded Nivaran Online, a tech based platform, with minimum human intervention, where a user gets answer to all his legal issues.

 In this interview, she talks to us about:

• Her journey as an advocate so far.
• Biggest challenges for starting her own practice.
• Nivaran Online- where a user gets answer to all his legal issues.
• The process to be followed when you start a business.

What made you choose the legal profession as your career option?

As a teenager, I wanted to escape the torture of Math. However, I knew Lawyers are one of the best read professionals, yet all of them do not get the glory they deserve. I wanted to redefine this norm, by looking at law beyond the litigation and corporate sector. If we give a serious thought to the legal profession, we will realize that lawyers don’t only study Law or Legal Theories, but they have to be updated on practically every subject, and this exactly fascinated me.

Having worked with some of the best names in the industry, how has your journey been as an Advocate so far?

I was never a corporate person. I believe, lawyers are warriors and they should be arguing on the battleground. So I chose Litigation. As a first generation lawyer, my journey was never easy. Nevertheless, I enjoy challenges. Working as an associate to Additional Solicitor general of India, gave me a great exposure. But, at the same time I realized that the Legal Industry does not value your skill-sets, it values your lineage. Seeing lawyers with great skillsets, working as Associates for long number of years, pinched me. It is very difficult for a lawyer, to quit his job and start an independent practice, irrespective of their skill sets. Working for years with minor compensation and non-acknowledgment of efforts, is not something a Lawyer thinks of when he or she chooses to do Law. That’s when I called it Quits, and started my independent practice, with one Affidavit as my only project in hand. Eventually, with undying persistence we have been able to grow, and able to accomplish ourselves as a full-service law-firm.

The perception that most law students have about law as a profession is quite different from reality. What are some of the points that you would advice aspiring lawyers to evaluate before pursuing law as a career?

I feel your real law school starts, when you graduate. Law, is one of the most exciting professions. An Apprehensive mind cannot be a good lawyer. You need to strongly believe that you are meant for this profession.  I don’t think we have any lawyer in history who has not had his/her share of ups and downs. It required immense passion and it teaches you to be compassionate. Law requires you to be patient, perfectionist and honest. There is no scope of an error. There are moments, which have the potential to break your morale, but that is what you have to overcome and give it a fight.

What are the biggest challenges to starting your own practice?

The biggest challenge is client acquisition. For a young lawyer, to get access to his client is tough. I have sat at Police Stations and Courts for hours to develop some contacts, so that I could get access to prospective client and work. I had not imagined that after interning with Lawyers for over 5 years during my law school, having a good academic background with National and International Exposure, I would be required to struggle so much to get a little work.  I was well-versed with the procedure and laws, as I have handled everything single-handedly as an Associate. It’s depressing when lawyers with skill- sets, do not get what they deserve.

Being a successful lawyer, what made you take the plunge as an entrepreneur?

As a lawyer, I was doing what everyone was trying to do. I was earning well, but my contribution to my peer community was absolutely zero. I remember how the idea of Nivaran struck me. I was appearing for matter in the Lokadalat, and there was long list of cases pending before the judge would hear my case. I was just observing the court scenario and I realised that, it’s now when I need to take a plunge to do something that will better the situation of lawyers in India, and at the same time clients can be sure of the lawyer they have chosen. There is so much disappointment in the legal sector from the Lawyers as well as the Clients end. A deserving lawyer is not getting clients and clients do not have the open access to the best lawyers around them. It was time I introduce something like this.

Tell us something about Nivaran Online.

Nivaran Online, is now a tech based platform, with minimum human intervention, where a user gets answer to all his legal issues. He gets immediate Audio/Video Consultation for smaller doubts, he gets his documents made and delivered at bare minimum amount like Rs. 999 for most of the Documents. And most importantly, a user can now see the best lawyers around them, view their detailed profile, Fees, and Ratings based on past records. We will be tying up with the best Rating Agencies in U.K. who will use the data of the lawyer in the Public Domain and Rate a Lawyer, making it the most authentic service. Apart from Lawyers, a User can also connect with Solicitors, Book A Senior Counsel, Look for Patent/ Registration Agents, and every individual involved in the legal Profession. It’s a one stop solution.

How difficult was it for you to connect and convince different lawyers and firms to register on Nivaran Online?

Honestly, it was very easy. We have no Subscription fees currently. And the kind of work and exposure lawyers have already started getting from our portal, has made it quite famous in the legal industry.

What is the process to be followed when you start a business like this – how do you get the domain name you want, how do you approach investors, what kind of permits, licenses or registrations do you need for the business?

I initially registered this as a Limited Liability Partnership, and we are in process of converting into a Private Limited. I started Nivaran Online with a niche market, like Consumer Law, before expanding to the entire legal space. I invested myself for over a year, and once I was confident about the scalability of this product, I pitched it to a few investors. The product was appreciated, and we already have some renowned names associated with us already.

Finally where do you see Nivaran Online 5 years from now?

 I see Nivaran Online going beyond the Indian Waters, and we are working on models to extend this service to International Users as well.

Bhagavath Krishnan is a 2013 graduate of KIIT Law School. During the course of his education, he interned with several reputed firms including Wadia Ghandy & Co., AZB Partners, Kocchar and Co., Vichar Partners, Iyer and Thomas, Blue Cross and APSHRC. Immediately after graduation he joined the litigation team at HSB Partners as an associate.

In this Interview Mr. Bhagavath talks to us about:

• His time at law school
• How he chose his various internships
• How to climb the ranks in a litigation firm
• Working as an associate of a litigation team

How would you like to introduce yourself to the legal fraternity?

A small time, happy-go-lucky Vakil with big dreams.

Why did you decide to choose law as a career? Is there anyone in your family who motivated you to opt law?

My father was a lawyer. He doesn’t practice now, though.

So, when I was a kid, I would hang out at his office after school and would act as if I am the senior there. My morning chore was to check the cause list for him and underline wherever his name appeared. I would take his books and mark as if I am correcting an exam paper and sometimes I would just sleep on his lap when he is in the middle of a meeting.

Naturally, when I had the option to choose a career, I wanted to do what my dad did for a living. He didn’t like my choice of profession though. But I want to be better than my father in his own game. That is why I chose law.

How was your life at KIIT School of Law? Did you find that your law school education prepared you for your current life?

Oh yes! Life at KIIT was the best I could ask for. I was part of a very lucky batch which was privy to some fantastic professors. I still remember how Prof. Ajjappa taught us how to write a citation! Constitution classes by Mr. Mustafa with his Urdu couplets (with translations from my friends) are unforgettable. I believe when you are in classes where such stalwarts are teaching, your tool-kit is in place.

But I think more than the classes, the people I met changed the way I think. There were students from all over the country. From the interactions [academic – 10% or otherwise – 120% (brilliant math!)] with them, I understood that a lawyer’s best tool is to gauge what the other person wants.

How did you choose your internships? Are there any such specific things that one should keep in mind while applying?

My boss has always told me that one should always have an end-game. My idea was very simple. I always knew I would be practicing in Chennai. I had to muscle all the contacts I could. So I made sure I did most of my internships in Chennai.

I was very lucky to meet so many lawyers (including my current boss) who guided me. I am grateful to all those who gave me work when I stood near their cabin/cubicle asking “Sir/ Madam, is there anything I may work on?”.

How would you advice a law student if one has to start on to preparing for a career while in college?

To be frank, I am not the best person to advice someone. I think everyone has their own way of working their career out. There is no straight jacket formula. The fun part in this profession is that you can chart your own path. So, one heads-up (not advice!) I would like to give to law students is to be sincere at work. I still churn out wrong drafts, but I am sincere at correcting it and getting it right the second time.

Could you tell us a bit about your internship experiences?

I think I enjoyed my Internships more than the actual classes. All my internships were very interesting. I think I was very lucky that I interned with lawyers who were very patient with me. They taught me how to research, how to draft. Most importantly, I learnt how Madras High Court works.

Like I said earlier, internships are very important and I made the most of all of them.

You had interned in HSB Partners, Chennai in second year of law school. From an intern to associate at HSB Partners, how did it happen? What are the important attributes for a fresher to work on?

I manage to do most of the litigation work because I love doing it. I just happen to work alongside a great team of lawyers who are good colleagues.

My HSB experience cannot be explained in words. My boss, Mr. Srinath Sridevan is someone I admire and look up to. Although there have been many instances where I have wandered off, he has helped me focus. The opportunities that he gave me changed my life.

HSB is a place where you can learn a lot. So as a fresher, you can make the most of it. My colleague advised me in my first year not to restrict myself to one field. He told me that as a fresher, one can work on anything one wants to. Luckily, HSB provided me with all the opportunities I asked for.

Being head of the litigation team, how do you manage the Court schedules and office work? What all methods do you adopt to deal with the clients?

I don’t think it is difficult to manage court schedules and office work. I agree that at first, you will be overwhelmed by the situation and the days’ work. But one will get used to it after sometime.

With respect to clients, I understand that most of them are anxious and nervous when they come with the brief. So, I found that they appreciate it if you tell them the plan of action and how it is going to be carried out. There is no point fighting with them – after all they came to you because they have a problem. I try not to add myself as a problem.

With these hectic schedule at work, coming to office at the earliest and leaving the office last, how do you balance your work and life?

I appreciate that you have gone through the office register.

Also, the work I am doing now is just half as much as my seniors (at HSB and others) did in their initial years. I just hope I get to do more work. Everything else will fall in place. So, I just give my best.

Are you planning to pursue your higher studies sooner or later?

No. I don’t think I can take a break from going to Court. I am used to the Ten-Thirty Tension. So, that’s not my cup of tea for now.

What would be your parting advice to our readers?

Heads up. Life as a lawyer is fun. It is best experienced when you are not scared of failure. So go ahead and give it your best.

Lawrence Liang graduated from National Law School of India University, Bangalore in 1998 and has been the co-founder of Alternative Law Forum. He is based out of Bangalore, and is widely known across the legal fraternity for his campaigns on issues of public concern, especially on conflicts of Intellectual Property and medical accessibility.

Soon after his graduation he received the Chevening Scholarship and did a Masters in Law and Development from the University of Warwick. He holds a Ph.D in Film Studies  from Jawaharlal Nehru University and a Post-graduate Diploma in Cultural Theory from Centre for Study of Culture and Society, Bangalore. Over the course of his career he has immersed himself in human right issues, media law and legal writing. He is currently a visiting faculty fellow at Yale.
In this interview he talks to us about:

• His time at NLSIU and Warwick and his educational qualifications
• His various experiences as a Fullbright Scholar, Henry Hart Visiting Faculty Fellow, and the Hughes Visiting Scholar.
• Alternative Law Forum
• His work with iCommons, the Sarai Institute and Public Access Digital Media Archive (Pad.ma) and Indiancine.ma.
• How he combined media and law
• His experience as a member of the Drafting Committee of the Colombo Declaration on Free Speech and Media in 2008
• His views on human rights advocacy

What could be a short introduction of yourself?

Hi, my name is Lawrence Liang and I am a legal researcher and writer based in Bangalore. I was one of the co-founders of the Alternative Law Forum, a collective of lawyers working on public interest issues and I have been involved with ALF for around 15 years. I left ALF in 2015 and I am currently a visiting faculty fellow  at Yale.

You received an English Honours in English Literature from St. Joseph’s College, Bangalore before graduating with a law degree from NLSIU. What prompted the choice to study law?

An early fascination with law – possibly prompted by popular culture – drew me towards law, but more than a clear idea of wanting to do law, I was clear that I had no inclination towards the sciences and at that point of time pursuing my first love – literature – didn’t seem like a feasible career option. Also it was the time that the National law school had just been set up and we started encountering a number of the NLS students in the quizzing and debating circuit and they seemed like some of the brightest people we had met. On inquiring further we figured that the law school was an an incredible experiment to revamp legal education and appeared to be the most exciting place that one could be in. My English Honours was actually alongside my time at law school. This was at St. Josephs’ where the department used to offer English Honors programs open to all, and in many ways doing this alongside the law shaped many of my subsequent interests in inter disciplinary studies, and in law and literature. While we we were studying subjects like copyright in law school, we were also being exposed to critical theory at Josephs, and one could start seeing the connections between ideas of authorship which were so central to copyright but being differently interrogated by thinkers like Michel Foucault and Roland Barthes. It convinced me of the need to have a wider approach to the law than just legal formalism.

What work did your masters in Law and Development involve in Warwick?

The Law in development program was attractive to those of us interested in a critical perspective mainly because Prof. Upendra Baxi taught there, and his scholarship had been very important to us. Warwick has a wonderful history of a engagement with law from a global south perspective and while there, my main learning was to develop a sharp ideological understanding of law and political economy especially in the way that it impacted questions of justice.

As a recipient of the British Chevening Scholarship, what opportunities did that open up for you? Was there a process for application for the scholarship?

The Chevening scholarship was literally the only way I could have afforded doing a Masters in the UK and we were lucky at that time that they had two scholarships for people interested in law and development. There was an application and interview process and the interview was a bit of a disaster, so I was rather lucky that I actually managed to get the scholarship. My time at Warwick helped shape an interest in activist lawyering and I started thinking about the need to set up a space after returning. I also took the opportunity to do courses that allowed me to dive into the continental philosophical tradition which significantly shaped my intellectual and political outlook.

You were the Best Outgoing Student at Warwick! What activities did you engage in there besides academics?

It is amazing that I got any work done there actually considering it was also a year of being passionately in love. But since cross border romances are best conducted under the shadows of culture I managed to watch many art house films and plays which I did not get to see in India, and the summer was one long cricket match rudely interrupted with thesis and course work breaks.

You have a Ph.D from the Jawaharlal Nehru University Film Studies Dept. and a PG Diploma in Cultural Theory from Centre for study of Culture and Society as well. How did you come to cultural studies? Did it have an impact on your approach to law?

Strangely enough while I turned to cultural studies and film studies from a boredom with law, they also enabled me to return to the law with renewed interest, but with a slightly modified perspective. My interest in cultural theory allowed me to read the law not merely from within its internal logic of rules and norms, but through a symbolic register where one could read law as culture. In recent times it is the discipline of anthropology which has been most exciting for me and the work of legal anthropologists like Pratiksha Baxi, Annelise Riles, Perveez Mody in domains as varied as rape law, international finance and the Special Marriages Act have been very exciting and inspiring for anyone interested in the workings of the law both in theory and practice.

As a Fullbright Visiting Scholar in Columbia University at the Anthropology Department, what did your work entail?

My time at Columebia offered me a chance to finish work on my doctoral thesis, and being at the anthropology department was to be a part of a fantastic intellectual community which allowed me to interact with many people whose work I have admired over the years. Brian Larkin who has worked on an ethnography of media piracy is a kindred spirit and he was my host while I was there. In some ways anthropology has emerged as the intellectual refuge for many disciplines and the number of law graduates who have becomes anthropologists is a good indication of what a fertile field it is especially in a country with as complex a legal system as India where numerous legal traditions and temporalities coexist and collide with each other.

Now you are the Henry Hart Visiting Faculty Fellow, at Yale Univ. for the academic year 2016-17. What do you focus your teaching on?

I am teaching two courses, one is a cinema course where I look at the social life of cinema in India moving beyond the cinematic text to focus on spatial and technological histories, fan clubs, labour histories etc. The second course I am teaching is on the Trial and its public effects in India where I look at key trials that captured the public imagination in India in the colonial and postcolonial context. I move between cases like the Tilak trial, the INA trials to the Nanavati case and the Arushi trial as a way of looking at the public life of law in India, and the way that trial becomes a critical event that recalibrates ideas of politics and public morality. It also becomes a story about the intersection between law and media since these very public trials become a theatre of justice constantly mediated by different technologies of mass media and legal trials become an effective site for the staging of dramaturgies of justice.

As the Hughes Visiting Scholar, Centre for South Asian Studies, University of Michigan University in 2014, were there any interesting conclusions to your work then, that you could share?

Michigan was a brief stint in which I got to test out some of the ideas that I had been working on at the time especially on ideas of forensic imagination and the rise of forensics in legal process. I was interested at that time in the idea of the doctored image, narco analysis etc and my friend Joyojeet Pal who teaches at Michigan is also interested in information politics so there was a superb synergy. I was there just after the Polar Vortex which meant that the extreme cold ensured that you just lock yourself up and do your work without any distraction. Ann Arbor represents the best and worst that a life in ideas could represent- the Ivory tower you are confined in because it is just too snowy to step outside but where you keep warm in good intellectual company.

You were a Co-founder of ALF. How did the idea develop to start that?

ALF was both the result of many years of conversations with friends as well as strangers who were as excited about the possibility of the experiment. Most of us had done some time with human rights lawyers or organizations, and while we were inspired by the legacy of critical lawyering India, we also felt the lack of a space that brought together litigation, activism and academic research. ALF was born out of a belief that there was a need to bring together these in a way that broke the barrier between theory and practice, and to a certain extent we were successful even if this was not without its attendant difficulties. The temporal nature of litigation and activism is always about the immediate and the urgent while research has a longer durée, and sometimes these can be in conflict with each other. But at ALF I was lucky to be in the company of extremely passionate and committed people, and I learnt that one’s political stances are not just learnt from the outside world but equally in these small experiments at collective living and working. To believe in an abstract idea of the right to equality is one thing, to actualize it in your practice is much more difficult, but in trying to do so you learn more about the abstract value as well.

What work does ALF focus on? Is there a unique work culture that volunteers or employees are expected to adhere to or anything in particular that is expected from them?

ALF works in a variety of areas from access to the criminal justice system, the politics of intellectual property, sexuality, labour etc. From the start we were committed to the idea of a non hierarchical workspace which was organized on the basis of collective responsibility- again much easier in principle than in practice- but I think an informal ethos and a respect for each other’s work is what attracted people towards ALF. Given the relatively modest salaries that we were offering, what made ALF attractive for many people was that it offered a vibrant intellectual and political environment, a collegial space underwritten by friendship and the chance to do work which you could see had some impact at least  on the lives of people.

What impact has working at ALF had on your life outlook?

This one will probably need more space than I have, but one simple one is a recognition that while the law is often a leaky umbrella, often it is the only one we have. And the real challenge of an ideological critique of the law is not to disavow it, but to deploy as effectively as possible using its own logic to work for those whom it normally works against. Apart from the professional side, it has shown me via the words of Neil Gaiman that inside everyone are strange and surprising universes and to work together is to be invited to universes that one would not normally be a part of.

Tell us a bit about the Public Access Digital Media Archive (Pad.ma) and Indiancine.ma.

Pad.ma is an online archive of video and documentary footage. It seeks to create a visual archive of densely annotated clips and Indiancine.ma tries to do the same for Indian films. These are collaborations with a fantastic group in Berlin, Pirate Cinema and Camp in Mumbai. They arise from a simultaneous interest in visual culture as well as in the radical potential of open access.

You have shown remarkable commitment to a variety of causes over the years. What are the major causes you espouse? Did you always know what issues you wanted to work on or did that happen with time?

While one always has a vague sense of values that one is committed to, the commitment to specific issues often arises from a particular context. For instance while I was generally interested in media laws, it was through the process of working with Vikalp (A group of documentary film makers who came together to fight censorship) that you are then forced to dive into and in some sense try and master a particular field. Similarly with issues of access to knowledge, the specific context of the DU photocopy case both confirms the importance of a politics of knowledge even as it refines the political stance you had through the technical prism of law. To be simultaneously committed to things you believe in even as you remain open to contingent forces that change or alter your politics is both exhilarating and inspiring. There is a lovely saying that revolutions should be born out of joy not sorrow, and I think we often derive out vitality from the energy of those we see around us, who in the face of extreme injustice are still defiantly hopeful for a better world.

Tell us how you have managed to combine media and law?

We live in a mediatized world where it is difficult to imagine any aspect of our lives which are not touched by media. From cinema to the internet, media occupies and shapes our consciousness, so it no coincidence that the world of law becomes crucially enmeshed with that of media. In a narrow sense that would mean the regulation of media, but in a broader sense it also means the transformation of law itself where law also becomes mediatized. The emergence of sting operations, the prevalence of trial by media are crucially media effects even as they are legal events, and to think of the contemporary is to think of media. Ravi Sundaram whose work has been very influential for me has a book which theorizes India ‘after media’ and in a sense he posits that everything changes after media and as a legal scholar you are bound to account for what that means in the legal world.

What is you role in iCommons? What do you strive to achieve there?

The Creative commons movement was a very important moment that showed us the possibility of what an alternative imaginary to the closed world of copyright could be. It expressed a philosophy of sharing and the creative potential of it contrasted with the diminishing of the public domain by strong IP regimes. It was also beset by its own limitations being enshrined within the idea of liberal legality, and for someone coming from India, where you could see the democratizing potential of illicit practices such as piracy, my own role was to contextualize what something like the CC movement meant in the global south, but also to nuance the debate with an understanding of the social and cultural worlds of knowledge sharing beyond the law.

What work have you done in collaboration with Sarai?

Sarai was one of the most exciting and important media and cultural spaces that emerged in early 2000’s which opened up all kinds of possibilities in the public discourse around art, media and urban space. It was set up jointly by the Raqs media collective and faculty members of CSDS and they supported the most cutting edge work in theory and practice for many years. The range of fellowships they offered, the legacy of the work they supported (from artists to graphic novelists) has been phenomenal. I started collaborating with Sarai in 2002, and it was a combination of boldness and generosity on their part which also helped ALF in its formative years. They saw a bunch of passionate and smart lawyers who wanted to try something new and supported us (intellectually and financially) helping us set our foundations. In 2005 we organized a global conference on intellectual property called Contested Commons and Trespassing Publics which I think made a significant impact on the global discourse on IP. We also co organized an event called World Information City that brought together artists and theorists thinking about idea and politics knowledge era as they played out in the lives of cities. My conversations with Jeebesh Bagchi, Ravi Sundaram, Ravi Vasudevan, Shuddhabrata Sengupta and others opened up ways of thinking from the diverse worlds of art, cinema and technology. Sarai, I think, allowed for us to see the various expressive forms that thought can take, and the traditional academic form of scholarship was both something they showed the limits of even by pushing the boundaries of how scholarship could be creatively and energetically expanded.

You have several publications to your credit! How do you choose when to write about what? Do you think research and publishing is very important for a law student?

Sometimes you choose to write because you are following an intuition, a curiosity and an intellectual itch. Other times a specific areas chooses you by virtue of its immediacy. At any rate for academics to write is to think and even though the act of writing is often a painful process every once in a while in the midst of writing you realize you are expressing thoughts you didn’t even know you had. So yes writing is crucial for law students, and I am grateful for the endless projects that we had to do as law school. I don’t think law school really teaches you law, what it does teach you is how to think about the law, how to forage for research material and how to put together an argument. What I do think is important is to fight the very real possibilities of writing becoming a painful drudgery (often the case with academic writing) and to experiment with different forms which retain the joyfulness of writing. For me writing in a range of forums from art journals, newspapers and academic spaces has been the key to maintaining my sanity since the joy of writing can easily be assassinated by footnotes. But more than a writer I think of myself as a reader, and writing for me is often is an excuse to make sense of what I am reading and to have imaginary conversations.

Please tell us about your experience as a Member of the Drafting Committee of the Colombo Declaration on Free Speech and Media in 2008?

This was a considerably difficult period in Sri Lanka, the civil war was at its peak and one of the immediate casualties was free speech. Journalists and editors were being targeted – often killed by the state as well as the LTTE. It was humbling to learn of the incredibly difficult circumstances under which journalists were doing their work and as members of the drafting committee we were privy to a remarkable set of testimonies. It reminded me of Foucault’s idea of parhessia- an idea that preceded the idea of free speech and referred to fearless speech- reminding us of the high stakes involved in speaking truth to power, and the small role that lawyers can play in nurturing a safe home of fearless speech. The experience really shaped my understanding of free speech laws in India and to appreciate the relatively good jurisprudence that exists on free speech in India. All the more crucial in these days when sedition charges are thrown about like cheap change and when shrill blood hungry media anchors become the greatest dangers to free speech.

What changes do you hope to see in human rights advocacy in India over the next decade?

With the mushrooming of law schools all over India, I hope that we in addition to producing lawyers for law firms, we also produce a generation of lawyers who continue a critical tradition. The law students I meet today are remarkably bright- certainly smarter than we were- they are born digital and command an enviable ease with all kinds of online research skills, and what would be fantastic is to have more lawyers who are able to engage with human rights issues not just in a generic sense of political empathy, but to deploy their legal skills in understanding and critiquing mainstream areas of law. What the human rights movement needs are more lawyers who know corporate law, insurance, taxation etc. In other words we need lawyers who understand the belly of the beast but also understand that the beast preys upon those who are most vulnerable and to be an effective human rights lawyer means internalizing Part 3 of the constitution, but also understanding how corporate governance can affect the same Part 3.

Ekagra Jain graduated from the Institute of Law, Nirma University in 2016. From being the Best Oralist in 4^th NALSAR-NFCG Corporate Law Moot Competition, 2015, to being the Best Emerging Player while representing his University in sports, he made sure that he explored every opportunity which came his way. He is inclined toward Corporate Law and Competition Law and is currently working in the Banking & Finance Department at Wadia Ghandy & Co., Mumbai.

In this interview he talks to us about:

• His experience at ILNU, both inside and outside the classroom and the decision to peruse law.
• The importance of balancing academics and the co-curricular and extra-curricular activities.
• Work experience at Wadia Ghandy & Co.
• His views on building a successful career graph in the field of law.

How would you introduce yourself to all our readers?

To everybody reading this, I am Ekagra Jain, a 2016 Graduate from Institute of Law, Nirma University, Ahmedabad. I have been recruited by Wadia Ghandy & Co. through college placements and have been working in the Banking & Finance Department, Wadia Ghandy & Co., Mumbai. Born & brought up in Jabalpur, I am a passionate reader who is still ‘learning’ in life and believes in being the change you wish to see in the world.

Why did you choose law as your career, who and what were your sources of inspiration?

To say that I wanted to be a lawyer for a long before would surely be fallacious. However, I was an avid debater during my school days which inclined my interests towards journalism in the beginning. My family had always given me full liberty to choose the venture I sought to enter into and thereby gave me a chance to break the stereotype of following ‘engineering’ as a career option. I had always been fascinated with legal education and the scope that existed beyond the four walls of the court room. However, with enhanced research and reading, taking into account career growth, I decided near to the end of the 12th standard that I wanted to be a lawyer. The  source of my inspiration is primarily my grandfather, who studied at BHU and was a Public Prosecutor for 11 years. In addition, my family trusted in me and what I wanted to do and the results have not disappointed them since. To the contrary, what scared me the most before entering law was the volumes of books that a lawyer is required to refer to. However, with the passage of time and dedication, to say the least, I have acclimatized myself to this profession and my inclination towards law has only escalated since then.

How was your law school journey like- could you share your experiences with us? What were your favorite subjects and your areas of specialization?

To say that my experience at Nirma University has been fabulous would be an understatement. Summing up a period of 5 years within 10 lines is an arduous task. Nirma gave me the perfect platform to groom myself personally and professionally. For me, when you barge into the entrance of a law school, you should keep your arms wide open towards actively participating in all activities that happen in a law school because that in turn lets you find what your interest lies in and also lets you adapt to itchy and uncomfortable situations. From focusing on academics, the submission of assignments, writing research papers, participating in moots, attending classes on a regular basis, to playing football representing the University, I made sure I didn’t have any regrets and enjoyed myself during the voyage of ‘learning’.  I am very thankful that I did law as it has made me think outside the box, meet some charismatic personalities who have helped me down the line and helped me improve as an individual. During my whole law course, I showed dedication towards all fields and made sure I did not overburden myself and left time for leisure with friends as well.

My Area of Specialization is Corporate Law Honors and I had been inclined towards Corporate Law & Competition Law therefore, I gave the Company Secretary Exam a shot and also the NALSAR Moot on Corporate Law. Additionally, I guided moot teams for their preparation primarily on corporate related Laws. I also have an interest towards International Laws namely Public International Law and International Trade Law to name a few.

You being one of the all-rounders of our college, kindly share with us your academic as well as extra-curricular experiences that have helped build your personality? What were your biggest achievements in and outside law school?

As they say, the more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in war. For me, my basic approach had always been to ensure Balance and train myself rigorously within all fields. Academically, I have always maintained above average pointers with my CGPA for the 5 years at around 8.7. I have also cleared the Executive Level of Company Secretary and will be attempting the Professional level soon. I have also obtained a Cyber Law Diploma Certificate from GLC and Asian School of Cyber Laws with a view to expand my knowledge.

With respect to Internships, I made sure I interned at all platforms and kept a planned approach towards it. I maintained a steady start originating from NGOs to Trial Courts to High Courts. I also interned under the Assistant Solicitor General of India. Moving on to Supreme Court, I interned under Mr. Shanti Bhushan, Former Union Law Minister and Senior Advocate which gave me a glimpse on the Supreme Court functioning and the clash of all high-rated arguments which flow. I have also interned in S & R Associates, Bharucha & Partners, Link Legal India Law Services, to name a few law firms. Owing to my interest as highlighted earlier towards International Law, I also interned at International Trade Law Consultants, New Delhi where I was offered a position in the long run.

With respect to Moot Courts, I have been adjudged as the ‘Best Oralist’ for the 4^th NALSAR-NFCG Corporate Law Moot Competition, 2015. We also bagged the ‘Best Memorial’ and we were ‘Semi-Finalists’ for this moot. I have also represented my University at the Asia-Pacific Rounds of ELSA WTO Moot Court Competition in Philippines, Manila and International Maritime Moot organized by VIPS, Delhi. Additionally, I guided various teams representing the University at the National and International Level. I have also written various research papers and made paper presentations. I was also the Co-editor for Law Mantra for certain years and worked as a Research Associate with Grayscale Inc.

For all the time I managed in between all that I did above, I tried my best to utilize it towards Football and fun with friends. I was awarded the Best Emerging Player of the Tournament from the University in 2013 and was also the Vice-Captain of the Team representing Institute of Law. In addition, I played in Yuvardha and for S & R Associates as an Intern at the Football Cup, Mumbai. All these all round experiences and their management have helped me in building my personality in the long run.

Tell us about your approach towards the long term and the short term goals you had set during the academic period and how were you able to manage it?

A goal without a plan is just a wish. I planned certain things way back to avoid panicking when the time arrived. With respect to scoring well in academics, I didn’t keep it as my utmost priority. All I always focused on was realizing the subject, its importance and getting the interpretation of law at its true essence. Exams weren’t and shouldn’t be an Integral goal. At the end of the day, even if you are a 9.6 pointer and could not answer the difference between hypothecation and pledge through an example, you still didn’t learn the way you should have. So my short term goal was always to get things in mind with appropriate logic. P.S.: If you have understood a topic, the exam pointers are always on your side.

Apart from academics, my short term goals were mainly to balance all extra-curricular activities in a manner that does not deteriorate the level of education I wished to attain. During my 1^st & 2^nd year, I would attend classes, play scheduled football match at lunch, and give an exam, complete assignments, research for moot all in a day.  It is a tough task at the start but soon you get to acclimatize yourself doing all things some way or the other.

With respect to long term goals,  most of the students and I would include me within this ambit are often stuck up in the starting years figuring out what seeks to be the apt future and where should we be heading at the end of 5 years and that is normal. Though I could see certain glimpses of where I will be heading towards the end, I fell short of being firm on my decision. By my third year, I was certain towards heading to the corporate field where I also attempted the Company Secretary exam and cleared it easily. I worked on my CV and did internships at places I was inclined to. Additionally, I also read up various articles on Corporate laws to augment my knowledge with all the current debates.

Wadia Ghandy & Co, Mumbai was the first law firm arriving for recruitment in my Batch and had a three step procedure for recruitment. It started with a written submission followed by Skype Interview and Final Round Interview at Headquarters, Mumbai. I had my basics clear and worked hard for the Final Round Interview. Finally when the moment arrived, I made sure I was well prepared to seize the opportunity thereby.

To sum up, plan beforehand on how you are going to take off. After law college you ae left at the midst of a highway where you see roads going off in divergent directions. Additionally, I was at my toes with backup options if things didn’t work out as you expect them to. The goal should always be to maintain consistency, trusting yourself and improving yourself. Also, the trick is to understand what is expected out of you when you step out and to learn the nuances which may help sustain you in the long run.

How far do you see your university as being the contributor in preparing you for what you are right now? Does ‘specialization’ in any field of law, as provided by your college, help in the early stages of one’s career?

For all that I stand today, I am indebted to Nirma University for graduating me not just in law, but in life too. Being a Private Law University set up just in 2007 and directly competing with the National Law Universities, we have made a place in the top most law institutions. We have had some astonishing faculties who have helped us down the line when it mattered most. An Institution is normally represented by its students and the students have left no stone unturned in brightening the name. From acing BCI Moot 3 times in a row (& various other moots too) to having record breaking placements as a Private University, the Institution has provided immense support to the students to rise on their own feet within the legal arena. As a Student run initiative, the Institute also supports Judiciary coaching for students who seek to do so. (I attended this to brush up all my laws). Having said that, we are still a growing institution and despite the positives as highlighted above, we still fall short on certain matters and have a long way to go.

With respect to specializations, I did specialization in Corporate Law and this has helped me to flourish and intensify my knowledge in corporate law. It has facilitated me also to work at ease and has also catered to my clearance of CS Executive.

Tell our readers about the goals you have set for yourself for the upcoming years? What do you see yourself doing ten years from now?

As of now, my goal is to learn and improve myself by the practical exposure I get in the shortest time possible. Other than my occupation, I am more committed towards successful completion of Company Secretary – Professional level exam due in December. I am not really certain for 10 years down the line, but if things go as planned, I see myself giving another interview to Super Lawyer 10 years from now as Partner of one of the leading firms

You are working with Wadia Ghandy & Co., one of the oldest law firms of India, tell us about your working experience? What is the real world like- are you facing difficulties carrying personal and professional life together now?

Currently working at Wadia Ghandy & Co., I’d say I have been working under a very experienced team where I have been learning the practical nuances of Law. Presently, I work in the Banking and Finance Department under Ms. Shabnam Kajiji, who has had years of experience in Banking and Finance Sector. My working hours normally begin from 10 in the morning and may stretch up to late at night, depending upon the work allotted and the reporting deadlines.

With respect to maintaining balance, I’d say we are all aware of the fact that in order to achieve something in life you have never had, you must be willing to do something you have never done which includes sacrificing personal life at times. Straight roads do not make skillful drivers. Working in a law firm is a challenging task and that’s what lets you grow and overcome them. Despite the long working hours which I may succumb to “occasionally”, I do have the sufficient breaks which let me enjoy my life too. And as they say, If you love what you do, you’ll never have to work a day in your life. Keeping the broad ideologies intact, I make sure I keep learning during my work and improving myself day to day, in order to reach where I intend to.

Considering the nature and importance of this profession what according to you should be the focus of the law students at the Law Schools? What are the important factors which students should keep in mind while building their potential career graphs?

Having seen and experienced the different facets of law, the focus of law students primarily should be towards seeing them grow. Experiencing and participating in different activities, indulging into healthy discussions and making sure that you are not only changing your CV to suit the firm needs, but changing yourself in a positive manner too is an integral factor which every law student should keep in mind. Additionally, what is of utmost importance is to realize the need to not only learn things by heart but to solve a complex situation by the practical application of law.

For building potential career graphs, there is no straight jacket formula to be followed upon by every law student. Every student has their own understanding, working patterns and their future goals. For people focused towards corporate, every law student shall develop his knowledge towards corporate laws, read up on corporate issues and should maintain a decent CV containing good Academic Credentials, Moot Certifications, Paper Publications, Internship Experiences to name a few, depending upon an individual’s interest and priorities.

Law school is an amazing time period where you have five years to read upon laws you have never done, participate in varied activities, get out of your comfort zone, work hard, trust yourself and chase your dreams. Dreams don’t work unless you do. In addition, every law student shall keep in mind the desire to chase the vision, not the money. The money will end up following if you have had the proper vision and worked on them accordingly.

In the end, what would be your 3 biggest pieces of advices for the students as well as fresh graduates who are all set to begin their professional lives soon?

My biggest advice for people who strive to set their foot into law firms or to the legal profession in general are the following. Firstly, don’t let the desire to learn end! Intelligence without ambition is like a bird without wings. Yes, you read that right. Many graduates often have that tendency to consider themselves at the epitome of success such that they inhibiting within their minds the practical knowledge that should come forth. For a lawyer, I’d say the road to learning is never ending. The farther you go, the better off you’ll be. Secondly, Think before you speak, read before you think. Recruiters have ‘experience’ and know how to analyze your knowledge within the ambit of law. For everybody applying for jobs, bluffing is not really an option. Make sure you have read upon the basics well and your answer should match what the recruiter seeks to ask and the rest shall be history.  Thirdly, Learn, Discover and Explore. Do not restrict yourself. There are various options emerging after you graduate. And as they say, do not blindly follow the Masses. Sometimes, the M is silent. Choose the one where you can deliver the best, carve a niche for yourself and prosper.

Srinath Sridevan is the founding Partner of HSB Partners, Advocates & Solicitors, Chennai. Srinath graduated with a Gold Medal in Law from Madras University in 1996 and then went on to pursue his masters from New York University in 1997. After graduation he got an offer from Allen and Overy, London and started working there. Later he moved back to India & started out with a new Law office, named – ‘HSB Partners’ at Chennai in the year 2004. He possesses an experience of over twenty years in the legal Industry with specialization in different aspects such as mining law, arbitration, corporate law etc.

In this interview he talks to us about:

• Choosing law as a profession and his experience at New York University.
• His formative years as a lawyer and his time at Allen and Overy, London.
• Experience of establishing his own firm with his friends.
• Criteria for selection of associates while recruiting.
• HSB Partners and its rapid expansion.

What incidents, influences or interests prompted you to think of law as your career and what other options would you have considered for your career?

I am one of the fortunate people who came from a family of lawyers and therefore Law was something apparent to me since I was in school. I also had an interest in science and astronomy especially, and I suppose if I had not gone into law I would have gone into astronomy. I had studied BSc(Physics) before I got acceptance from Madras Law College.

Tell us about your experience in Dr. Ambedkar Law University.

See, that time it was Madras University it was not Dr. Ambedkar University. The college itself is a century old institution and therefore, the building is spectacular, the library has books which we only dream of. For example I have seen with my own eyes a two hundred year old copy of the Hedaya by Bailee, which was one of the most classical texts in Muslim law. But unfortunately the university suffered due to government laps and negligence. Therefore, classes were conducted in a haphazard fashion. In such a situation you are forced to learn for yourself and that’s what I did.

Could you tell us about your experience at New York University? What all were the differences that you found the Indian form of legal education and the other form of legal education?

Everything was different. I don’t even know where to start In the Indian form of teaching specifically at Madras Law College, the professor would come in, cover their portions and leave at the end of the hour. Some professors took a little bit more interest and tried to make the class more interesting, so it was only the frontbenchers who really gained anything, because we used to study out of our own interest, and also used to take notes in class. But at New York University, the scenario was completely different. The entire class was completely participative. The professor started a discussion and he guided the discussion. So, at the end of the hour the entire class would participate in the discussion. So as a result the entire portions were covered. And apart from that there would be seminars. So, in a semester you had one hour of discussion per week with a professor, where you would jointly research on some of the subjects. The amount of learning you got in these seminars was unbelievable. Of course, the quality of the professors at New York University was also very high. Some of the professors I learned from are known the world over. So, you really can’t compare the two. The experience at NYU was quite amazing.

You received a scholarship for applying to New York University. What factors should be kept in mind while applying for LL.M in different foreign universities?

First you have to look at what you actually want out of your LL.M. Students go overseas for masters degree for different reasons. Some of them are extremely focused and they see a masters degree as a stepping-stone for a further career progression. Some students do a masters degree simply because their friends are doing it. Some people do it because they want a year before the reality of life hits them. So, it depends on what you want out of it. Let’s take the first category, the people who are extremely focused. They need to think about what they want to do after their Masters. If one thinks of working at the UN or some international body, then you need to apply to those universities like George Washington, NYU, and Columbia etc., which have very strong relationships with international bodies. And if you do your Masters there, it is easier to get positions and fellowships from international bodies. So, that’s one. Similarly, if you are looking to work at a law firm in the US, then you should look at the universities in those states of the US, where you are permitted to take the Bar exam with just a masters degree. So, for example you choose a State like New York, or California, where you actually can consider taking a job after taking the Bar Exam in the US. In the UK, you have to look at the universities that give you best access to QLTT.

The second and third categories of people are those who are going for an LL.M because they can, or because they want to discover themselves, or something like that. They need to choose a city that enables them to enjoy life there to the fullest. If funding is an issue then you need to choose the universities that are really rich and which are able to give large R.A.s and T.A.s or fellowships.

You have interned at Deacons, a foreign law firm and you have been an associate at Allen and Overy. How your experience there was and what differences did you find between foreign law firms and Indian law firms?

I was very young when I interned in Deacons, so everything was new to me when I was there. So, on a couple of occasions, when I got to work directly with the partner that was like a high for me that lasted for the entire day. Therefore, since every experience was new, the internship itself was an eye-opener for me. What I got out of it I cannot say but it was a life changing experience for me. You learn how large these firms are. I was three years into the profession when I got an opportunity to work at Allen and Overy. So, I was more settled and I had clearer legal views. At Allen and Overy what interested me was my access to global transactions and global working practices. So, I learnt a lot there as well.

Coming to the Indian law firms, in the last five years, they have got most of the good practices that these foreign law firms have. So, you have well established drafting and conveyancing techniques, clearer career paths for the Associates etc.

The Government of India is planning to allow foreign law firms to enter into India. Do you think the Indian law firms will be confronting to fight with the tough competition foreign law firms entering into India?

You, have to understand that you are asking this question to a law firm based in Chennai. I do not believe that law firms based outside of Delhi and Mumbai will be affected at all, because whoever is in Mumbai or Delhi will always need local legal support from a good law firm in Hyderabad, Bangalore or Madras. So I personally do not think that a law firm in Chennai will be affected at all.

Further, even as per what I have read, foreign law firms will be permitted to enter only for the purpose of advising on foreign laws aspects of transactions.

It is a general assumption that the fresher graduates have to struggle a lot during the initial years. What was your experience?

Look, you use the word struggle as something bad. From my first year, I spent all my free time reading Bare Acts and judgments whether I understood them or not. The first few months, especially the first three months, were quite boring and it was really difficult to sustain the interest. But at some point of time the interest kicked in. Once the interest comes in, it’s a matter of pleasure to keep learning. Even now when I am bored, I pick up a law book and read. It’s not a “struggle”. I find it very pleasurable.

What made you to venturing into a law firm than setting up an independent practice?

All the three partners at HSB are all the same age. We all hail from families of lawyers. After we finished our bachelor’s degrees, we all went to the US for our Masters’ degrees. I went to NYU, and my partners went to Northwestern. After we finished our respective degrees, my two partners worked in Chicago and New York respectively, and I went to work in London.

Over the next few years we kept in touch through e-mail. We were always talking about returning to the motherland and being with our parents.

By 2002, one of my partners, Harishankar, and I started a firm and we commenced working together.

By 2004, we spoke to Bhaskar and informally we joined together.

And on first of April, 2005 we formally united as HSB partners.

How was your journey during the initial days of HSB? Why do you think that HSB has won the best law firms award in the year 2012 in corporate and commercial laws?

These awards do not matter much. You can get one every year from someone or the other. I personally don’t give much importance to these awards.

The initial years were very exciting because it’s great to be working with your friends. There was a lot of sharing of knowledge. You know every day me Hari, Bhaskar and I used to discuss our respective cases. So, that was extremely exciting.

We also got to learn transition from being the sole proprietors of our family firms to actually being one single firm like HSB.

While hiring lawyers, what kind of skills you look for in their CV?

Speaking for myself, I look for three things.

The first being the university where the candidate has studied; whether it is a recognized one or not. I look for academic scores.

Then I look for the places that this person has worked or interned at and the kind of work the candidate has done.

Most importantly I look at the extracurricular and co-curricular activities because that is the real test of character and if I see something interesting there then I usually invite the person for an interview.

What do you expect from a first year associate or an intern?

I usually take interns from their second year. I ask them minor questions to see if the candidate shows interest. If a candidate shows initiative, then I give more responsibility.

So from my perspective, I give as much work to a person as that person wants. Each person depending on how much interest they show can grow.

What do you find admirable in present generation of lawyers compared to that of your generation?

They are lot more prepared, prepared in the sense, bold and willing to state their opinions. For example: when I was in my fourth year of law school I don’t think I could have expressed my views as boldly and candidly as many of the interns do nowadays.

What is your thought about the traditional ideas of specialization in single core areas of law as opposed to the contemporary broader approach with wider field with multiple specialties?

I am biased because I myself have several areas of interest. So obviously I will say it’s better to have a broader field of knowledge. I don’t think you can be an effective lawyer if you know only one very narrow vertical.

You can be an effective lawyer only if you know the general principles of all laws and you have a very wide-ranging interest in other fields of life as well.

Do ever want to be a senior counsel or judge?

Senior counsel: Yes, that is something I would like. When, I don’t know. The rules in Madras High court for designation of lawyers by senior counsel have now been changed. Now, it’s only by invitation. So, that may arise if and when am invited.

Judge, probably not.

What kind of internship would you recommend for a law student to opt for, to start building versatility and a wide range of law that you are well versed with today?

I would recommend a litigation internship with lawyers or a firm that has a very substantial practice, that too when a court is in session. This is what will expose an intern to the widest possible range of laws in a shortest possible time. Unfortunately, most of the applications for internship are for the months of May and December when the court is not in session. So, those interns don’t get very much out of their internships. So to get the broadest ranging experience, I would recommend interning under a very busy lawyer or a very busy firm when the court is in session.

What would be your advice to the budding lawyers?

Nothing but Enjoy yourself.

Vibha Mane is a 2006 graduate of Symbiosis Law College, Pune and did a Diploma in Alternative Dispute Resolution from the Asian School of Cyber Law. Thereafter in 2008, she earned a Master’s Degree in International Commercial Law from the University of Glasgow, United Kingdom. She worked for a while as a Research Manager at Rainmaker and then as a Legal Assistant at IC Legal, Advocates and Solicitors. She also worked as a Senior Research Associate at Jindal Global Law School and as a Research Officer at TISS. At present, she is the Director at Law Matters, a company that she founded.

In this interview she explains to us:

• Suggestions on engaging in extra and co-curricular activities during law school and how to plan internships
• Her various job experiences
• Setting up and working at Law Matters
• Studying at the University of Glasgow

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

I am the Founder & Director of Law Matters LLP based out of Mumbai. Some other terms that are often used to describe me are- a teacher, trainer, researcher, writer, lawyer who doesn’t practise and an entrepreneur by chance!

Why by chance?

In ten years of work experience, I tried litigation, law firms, and the state electricity commission. I also worked as a content creator, trainer, teacher and researcher. Of all these experiences, I could relate to academia as my core field of work. I had the opportunity to work with some big educational institutes like Jindal Global Law School and Tata Institute of Social Sciences. These work profiles allowed me to understand my career strengths – content, research and teaching/ training. I realised, my work has a broad spectrum and I could freelance. So, in 2014 Law Matters was emerging as an idea and honestly, it was my husband who encouraged me to think big and take the bold step of setting up Law Matters. I had my inhibitions about this whole ‘starting up on your own’ concept! But it was worth taking a chance.

Together, we spent a year studying market trends in the legal field, met many principals and vice chancellors, gathered their feedback on lacunae in legal education and Law Matters was conceptualised by February 2015!

Tell us more about Law Matters.

We have four faculties- content, training, policy analysis and social projects. We create various courses for law schools and even management schools. We train law students on career options in law, career combinations with law, research methodology, effective communication and writing, soft skills, resume crafting, mock interviews and a lot more. We assist law schools with course content assessment, students’ calibre tests, organising seminars, getting their students job ready etc. Our team also undertakes policy analysis on various topics and we have some interesting social projects lined up. While the first two faculties generate income for us to sustain, the other two faculties are more out of interest for these causes. Law Matters believes that a healthy legal change equals a better social tomorrow and hence these initiatives.

So how has it been for Law Matters? What challenges did you face?

We are already a year old and are perceived as a finishing school for lawyers. In the first year we did more of training in Pune, Delhi and Satara but this year we are being approached a lot for content from Bangalore, Haryana and Delhi. I am very happy with our progress and particularly with this shift in demand. My biggest challenge has been to make law schools understand that we need to change our traditional methods of teaching law. A mere ‘Drafting, Pleading and Conveyancing’ (DPC) class doesn’t equip them with the skills they need to be ‘employment ready.’We need new and practical courses for law students.The standard courses that one takes through three or five year courses are redundant. Today’s students are always on the lookout for some diploma / certificate courses on upbeat topics. So why not provide them with those? Quality content is critical if we want them to stay up-to-date with changing trends and acquire skills for a good caree start.

What would you like to share with us about your college time and the impact it had on your views of law?

My views on law were very dramatic. My family has many lawyers and I was always in awe with their work and reputation.  As a child I gathered soon that lawyers, like police are quite important people! So studying law was natural for me. I had thought, I will get a law degree and then practice in courts, as is the family trend.

Five years at Symbiosis Law School, Pune made me realise that being a lawyer was quite a task. What I loved most was the pattern of logic and reason that law holds. This makes it so interesting. The course was vast, yes! But thankfully, studying law didn’t seem tough.

While there, what co-curricular or extra-curricular activities did you indulge in? How did you plan your internships? How did the same affect your overall take away from law school?

I enjoyed legal-aid workshops and street plays on socio-legal issues. Honestly, I was not much involved in moot courts and elocutions at law school. This is one aspect that is often considered important on a fresher’s resume. Though, its absence never affected my career, it is one of those college things, I still regret not having done. I think, participating in such activities gives a boost to your confidence, it is through these activities that you can actually practice some research and presentation skills.  It also aids in improving your rapport among the social circle.

About internships; no one ever recommended that I should intern with law firms or corporate houses. I toiled in district courts and the Bombay High Court learning procedural laws. During this time, I got a reality check- law is not as fancy as it seems in cinema! So, unfortunately, my internships lacked planning. This I often see as my career drawback. Learning from my own experience, I suggest that students should get a variety of internships at companies, law firms, NGOs and even start-ups, as they offer a hands-on learning base.

What motivated you to pursue an LL.M in Glasgow after graduation?

I saw this coming!!! You see, my career wasn’t working the way I saw it – in courts. Post degree, I again tried to give litigation a chance in the Bombay High Court but I wasn’t enjoying it. The clueless, ignorant and vulnerable crowd at courts made it even less interesting. I felt I just can’t be practicing law. This self-realisation was scary and difficult to deal with. I obviously wanted more time to think about my options. The senior lawyer I was working with; Advocate Deepa Chavhan, suggested that I do an LLM and appear for QLTS (solicitors’ exams). At that time, I wasn’t sure what it means to be a solicitor but the prospects looked promising. Thus, I began applying for UK universities for Masters in Law. I was happy to get through to the University of Glasgow. Ranked in the top 1% of world universities, it is considered the university of world changers– Adam Smith, James Watt, seven Nobel Laureates and a rich heritage of over 560 years. Besides, I was fascinated with Scotland!

How did the degree change your perspective on legal practice and development within the country?

I am truly grateful for the exposure I got while doing a Masters in Law. Within the first few months, I realised I wasn’t equipped or trained to do systematic research, my writing lacked clarity and did not justify the research methodology I had used, and my critical analysis had to be a lot stronger and supportive of my arguments. This was the case with many Indian students studying law there. We weren’t taught these things. We weren’t groomed to be researchers and effective writers. I had to unlearn to write volumes about a topic, instead I struggled to put my point across crisply, in one or two lines. Funny but true!  I also realised that soft skills are a very crucial part of a lawyer’s personality and practice, and Indian law schools were missing the point completely. Our law schools have begun focusing on these issues only recently.

Your work with Rainmaker stressed on content creation and streamlining legal research skills and techniques. What sort of a gap did you believe existed in the ability of trainees?

Rainmaker offered great intellectual freedom. The team was committed to bring in a much needed change in the legal field- teaching, training and talent management.  This job helped me execute all that I had learnt during my Masters’ degree. I enjoyed creating content on varied legal topics and training was equally fascinating. Initially I was sceptical about training law students only a few years younger than me and law professionals quite older than me! But most of these trainees – young and old, acknowledged the fact that I knew things they wished to learn, this made my task easy. The biggest gap however, was of virtual intelligence! Being able to type a word document, or writing emails, or having LinkedIn accounts doesn’t mean we are virtually intelligent and technologically effective. There are a zillion little things to make a lawyer’s work look more professional, serious and authentic. So yes, there is still a huge scope for improvement there.

At the prestigious Jindal Global Law School, what were the finer points of your research projects? What did the process of publishing your work from there entail?

My year and a half at JGLS was loaded with research on topics like election laws, police reforms, prison industry, laws relating to women, inter-relations between law, society and cinema; right to religious freedom, torts, ragging and a lot more. Some work was published as articles, some as reports. During this time, I also worked as the Managing Editor of the Jindal Global Law Review, for the September 2010 issue. This responsibility proved to be a good opportunity to learn the intricate process of making a piece publishable. It really takes practice to go over the same piece again and again and to fix faults each time. And it is so good to see law students taking keen interest in publishing their work in various law journals. We as teachers and trainers, must encourage them to publish more.

From your experience of teaching, what would you like to say about the newer generations of law students?

There are quite a few things I like about this generation of law students- they are open to new ideas, they like mixing law with literature, poetry, documentaries, designs, humour and more. A curious class makes the teacher bring in something new to the desk, always! Plus, these students are aggressive about their career growth. They are sure of their choices. However, they dedicate all their five years towards building one particular resume that supports only their liking, not their ability! And see, this is also something that I have done myself. So, I know what it leads to.

During our career counselling sessions, we often handle a lot of confusion. For instance, “Can I do CS even if I am weak in my accounts?” The question is how you see CS complimenting law and future prospects. Or something like, “I want to study for a Master’s degree but I am not sure whether to pursue an LLM or MBA.” Again, the answer to this question depends on why you think you need a Master’s degree in the first place and which areas do you want to work on.

Another prominent trait of this generation is that these kids are setting very high standards for themselves at the very beginning of their career. This quite often leads to disappointment. They usually fail to do a reality check.

Would you say their education varies from your own experience in college? If so, how?

Oh yes, certainly! The exposure that law schools offer to their students has tremendously increased. Of course, even we had industry experts teach us. We had active placement cells too, but the law schools were few then. Now private universities are offering world class facilities, state of the art infrastructure, and global faculty! Ten years ago, many practicing lawyers acted as visiting faculty for several law schools. Only a few teachers were committed to teaching law the way it should be taught! No one taught us howto use LexisNexis, Hein Online, Westlaw, JSTOR etc. We learnt these things on job. These days, more or less all law school libraries offer free access to these databases.Besides, earlier; for moot courts, students prepared themselves. Now law schools put up a whole team of industry experts to make students ‘moot ready’ and that’s great, isn’t it?

Law, Development, and Social Change was the core focus of your work with the Tata Institute of Social Sciences, (TISS) Mumbai. What would you like to tell us about the need and aspirations of the same?

Every institute has its own unique agenda. Social commitment was an integral part of the proposed LLM course for TISS. So while creating content I had to make a course that evolved around poverty, religion, gender justice, vulnerable groups, alternate advocacy, economic law and development, legal reforms and court and case management. As a lawyer, knowledge of these subjects is indeed crucial but interest in these topics cannot be forced, you have to be passionate about it.

An emotional quotient is important for lawyers but the levels may vary for everyone. When one has flourishing options to consider from property, real estate, maritime, space, sports, media, arbitration, etc. one tends to favour these topics over the social reform aspects of law. Having said that, I am, by no means, generalising the choices. We still have a good number of law students extremely keen on topics like refugee laws, immigration issues, torture, armed forces’ powers, animal rights, peace treaties, child rights, LGBT and so on.

From an aspiring SuperLawyer to the Founder of Law Matters LLP, how does the specific skill development you envision set someone apart from the current crop?

With Law Matters, I and my team are attempting to bring in the desired change in current legal educational environment through new content and innovative teaching techniques. The skills that we envision all lawyers to acquire are very crucial. It is his research and writing ability that helps a lawyer win his bread. Research allows you to get to the details, and writing teaches you to value the information. Most of these professionals and students alike, realise that we are assisting them with acquiring important skills that aren’t taught elsewhere. Basics like how to effectively draft a document, how to use search engines for accurate legal research, what search terms to use -when and where, how to break an issue to reach the most convincing argument, what other technological tools a lawyer can benefit from etc.are gaining popularity and acceptance.

Finally, do you have any other advice for our readers, most of whom are college students?

I would strongly recommend they take soft skills seriously. They should focus on developing a good resume from the very beginning. Reading for class and beyond class material is one good habit that they should try to inculcate. Also, a clean and responsible virtual presence adds a lot of credibility to your personality.  Lastly, your years at law school are equally important as your internships. So, don’t get so busy learning the tricks of the trade that you forget to learn the trade.

Shabbeer Ahmed graduated from National Law Institute University (NLIU), Bhopal in 2008. After this, he was working in leading corporate law firms such as Amarchand Mangaldas Suresh A. Shroff & Co. (AMSS), Mumbai and Fox Mandal & Associates, Hyderabad. He is currently a Principal Associate at Kochhar & Co.

In this interview, he talks about:

• His time at National Law Institute University, and how to prioritise your commitments there. The importance of keeping yourself motivated and also keeping company of similarly motivated individuals.
• How to go about getting publications, and how to pick topics and issues appropriate for you.
• His work experience at the firms he has been employed at as well as his internships, and what to expect from such professional environments.

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

I am currently working as a Principal Associate in the Litigation team of Kochhar & Co., Hyderabad. I have graduated from National Law Institute University (NLIU), Bhopal in the year 2008 and previously worked with prestigious firms such as Amarchand Mangaldas Suresh A. Shroff & Co. (AMSS), Mumbai and Fox Mandal & Associates, Hyderabad in the positions of Associate and Senior Associate respectively.

Was it a childhood dream to take up law? What motivated you to pick this field?

I have always dreamt of becoming a civil servant like my father. Law happened to me by accident. I was never interested in pursuing a career in law.However, my father has a great fascination for law. It was only in deference to my father’s wish that I  chose law. However, I have no regrets about it now. I owe my success to my father as he has been a great inspiration for me. My interest in law has picked up gradually. Law began to interest me more when I started excelling in co-curricular activities such as moot courts and publications.

As it is popularly said, “All is well that ends well”. I am currently at this position – enjoying every bit of it – rendering legal services to a variety of clients on a wide range of areas of law.

Tell us about your time at NLIU. You were involved in a number of co-curricular and extra-curricular activities. How did you divide your time amongst them while also maintaining a stellar academic record?

Law school days were the most memorable days of my life till date and whenever one takes the name of my college, I become nostalgic and I can go on speaking for hours,reminiscing the wonderful time spent there. It’s very important to have a good circle of friends who are all focussed in college. I have seen many students with brilliant academic records till 12^th standards, who managed to crack some of the toughest entrance examinations in the country and joined reputed colleges, only to get distracted. They would also become involved in many other avocations, all because of the circleof friends they fell in with. I was fortunate to have a good bunch of friends who are quite academic and career oriented since the very first year of the law school and we used to exchange each others’ notes and involve in combined study during our examinations. We all have been fortunate to pass out from law school with placements in top tier law firms of the country, and we owe this to our parents and also the wonderful faculty we had in our college those days. Your focus on studies and the activities you take up in law school largely dependson your own motivation as well as the company you keep. One should never forget that these are the most important and constructive days of your life which would pave a path for your glorious career ahead. Needless to say that apart from being engaged in academic and extra-curricular activities, I had a gala time hanging out with my group of friends on and off the campus. The location of NLIU campus amidst greenery with thick forest cover offers a wonderful scenic view from the windows of your class rooms and also hostel rooms and you feel like you haven’t had enough of it even after 5 years.

Coming to managing both academics and co-curricular activities, it’s definitely a difficult task – especially if you follow the trimester system in law school – however, it’s not impossible to manage. One should give equal importance to both academics and extra-curricular activities such as participating in moots courts, seminars, conferences and organising activities on behalf of internal committees.However, if there is a conflict at any point of time, academics should take precedence over the extra-curricular activities. It all depends on how one manages their priorities. I used to plan ahead and opt for those moot courts which would take place just after winter or summer vacations so that they did notclash with either my examinations or internships. Generally, when college reopens, there would not be too much pressure inthe initial few days on the academic front. I also used to allot some of my timeduring my internship on carrying out research on the moot problem. Further, I often converted the project assignments which I undertook and presented during the course of my internships in the law firms into a research paper and tried to get them published in reputed journals. In most law schools, there is a system of submission of project report on a topic in each of the subjects you study in a particular trimester or semester. In case a student works on atleast 5 projects in a semester or trimester, he can work seriously on atleast one out of the five projects by choosing a topic having contemporary relevance and carry out an in-depth research on the issue. Such project reports(being a piece of original work) can later be modified into a well drafted research paper with proper footnoting of sources and bibliography and send them to legal journals and magazines for publication. Participation in moot courts and involvement in article writing / research papers would hone your research and drafting skills, which is very crucial for the legal profession. Therefore, one can manage activities such as moot courts and publications by planning things in advance like choosing of moot court based on its schedule and conversion of project assignments in college and internships into research papers so that such activities would not eat out the time meant for preparation of academic exams.

Further, I was also part of many internal committees such as Moot Court Committee, Cell for IPR and Cell for Research in International Law at different periods of my law school. I was also one of the editors in a student-run legal magazine called ‘The Edict’ for a brief period. By being part of such internal committees and groups, one would learn the art of organising college level and national level conferences and competitions and it further broadens your exposure and outlook as you would get to interact with students and faculties from various colleges and also some legendary guests participating in such events which would mould you into a highly motivated team player at the end of the day.

What sort of activities must a student take up in law school to not only enhance one’s CV, but to also become a well-rounded graduate?

One should have a balanced approach towards the academics and co-curricular activities in the law school which would result in maintaining a balanced CV. A candidate with wholesome CV with equal proportion of everything (curricular, co-curricular and extra-circular) is always the desired choice for both campus recruitment and also for getting admission into LLM in foreign universities. The top tier firms which come for campus recruitment would look for a candidate having a CV which reflects his overall development and not just the academics. Though I was never the topper of my batch, I had maintained a consistent academic record and managed to be among top 10 percentile in the batch and complimented that with my achievements in co-curricular activities such as moot courts, seminars and publications and this really mattered a lot during my campus interview with AMSS.

For achieving a balanced CV and becoming a well rounded graduate, consistency in performance is very important. One should never neglect academics and try to manage to be among top 10 or 15 rankers of the batch. Further, participation in moot courts, seminars and paper publications would hone your oratory, research and drafting skills. As I stated above, the experience of being part of internal committees in the university and organising various events would motivate you to be a good team player, which becomes crucial once you join a law firm or corporate house. Last but not the least, having good internships from reputed law firms would definitely have an edge in securing a good campus placement or bagging a pre-placement offer. Candidates should chose internships especially from fourth year onwards based on the career path they chose. A candidate interested in working in corporate firms should aim to work at best possible law firms while the one who wants to pursue litigation practice is advised to intern with trial court or high court advocates. And there is no harm if a candidate who is seriously interested in pursuing civil services does not do any internship provided he utilises the vacation period in building his basics strong in terms of general knowledge, law and also reading NCERT text books and magazines related to competitive exams.

You have completed an LL.M program in Constitutional Law. When did you develop an interest in this field and what drove you to pursue an LL.M in the same? You did your LL.M program in an Indian institution, which is not usually considered by most NLU students. Can you explain your rationale behind doing an LL.M in India as opposed to going abroad?

I have done my LL.M through distance education from Acharya Nagarjuna University while I was preparing for civil services after quitting AMSS. Constitutional & Administrative Law has always been my favourite area of law since college. In fact, all my moot court competitions were on the subject of Constitutional Law. The primary reason for pursuing LL.M is that if I would ever retire from this profession, I might end up being a faculty in some law school and I would then love to teach Constitutional & Administrative Law. As per UGC norms, one is required to have qualified NET (National Eligibility Test) conducted by UGC every year to be eligible to become a faculty (Assistant Professor) in UGC recognised universities. The eligibility for appearing in NET exam is to have a post graduation degree from a university recognised by UGC. Therefore, I had chosen to do LL.M (post graduation) from an Indian University (recognised by UGC) and also subsequently qualified the NET exam in Law. I am now eligible to apply as a faculty in any university for teaching law. I am not against an LL.M degree from a foreign university, however, the law firms in India would mostly prefer a candidate having good work experience in a specialised area of law to a candidate who has just returned with an LL.M degree from a foreign university. Moreover, a candidate who wants to pursue LL.M in a subject like Constitutional Law and further intends to practice in either a High Court or the Supreme Court, or teach in an Indian University is advised to pursue it from an Indian universityas different countries have different constitutions. Besides, as we all know, India has the longest written constitution in the world.Where else one can learn better about constitution if not in India?

You have to your credit publications on a wide variety of topics. Do you feel it is better to play to one’s strengths and only publish on a particular subject, or to diversify and explore various aspects of law?

Writing and drafting skills is one of the most prominent aspects in legal profession and especially in corporate law firms. What to write and what to avoid is another essential element in drafting of pleadings to be filed before the Court and preparing legal opinions for the clients. It is better to have one’s drafting and research skills honed during law school days by writing articles or research papers. It depends upon one’s choice as to whether the candidate wants to have publications only on a particular subject or diversify and explore various areas of law. For example, for a candidate who intends to pursue his career in IPR, it is preferred to concentrate in having publications only on IPR related issues, which would fetch him good opportunities in the career path he has chosen. I write mostly on contemporary issues which interest me. I am an ardent reader and follower of daily newspapers and news channels and try to be uptodate with the current affairs. My way of reacting to the happenings in the society or to a latest legal development is by writing short articles. Coming to publication of research papers, most of those are the modified versions of project reports which I have prepared as part of my curriculum in college or during the course of my internships, as stated above.  I have always been interested in Litigation, due to which I have publications on a wide range of topics such as law & sociology, criminal law, partnership, Arbitration etc. It’s easy to get publications in legal magazines if one chooses topics having contemporary relevance or a burning issue during a given point of time or an issue in which the law is still unsettled.

You have won many awards at various Moot Court competitions. What should students focus on to achieve success at such competitions, especially if it is the first time they are participating in such an event?

Mooting was my passion in law school. Even now, I visit NALSAR and other local colleges to judge state and national level moot court competitions. I never won a moot court competition; however, I was finalist in all the moots I have participated in. I won best speaker in KLA Constitutional Law moot court competition and won best memorials in all the moots that I have participated in. I was fortunate to have wonderful team members (Abhijeet Swaroop, Amar Pratap Singh, Smarika Singh & Gaurav Gopal),and team work really matters in moot court preparation. The first and foremost element in preparation for a moot court competition is to read the moot problem as many times as possible, understand it thoroughly and identify the issues involved in it. One should inculcate the habit of reading between the lines in the moot court problem and try to find tricky points. Once the issues are identified, one needs to carry out thorough research on the said issues and compile all the research material relevant to the issues consisting of both primary and secondary sources of law. Thereafter, based on the accumulated research material, one needs to prepare the line of argument to reach a particular conclusion on the identified issues. Such arguments supported by research have to be captured well in a language that is easy to understand in the Memorial. Citations and footnotes have to be incorporated in accordance with Bluebook. If you are thorough/well versed with your research and what you have written in the Memorial, you can advance oral arguments with ease. One needs to rehearse oral submissions as many times as possible and try to anticipate questions from the judges and prepare answers accordingly. The Oral submissions have to be precise and to the point and one should aim to cover all the submissions within the prescribed time limit. I personally feel that you need to be as humble as you can and be clear in your presentation while addressing the bench. Without having regard to the result, participation in moot competitions and arguing the cases before judges (who are at times sitting or retired Judges of High Court and Supreme Court) would enhance one’s confidence levels and you would easily get rid ofany stage fear, or even develop an interest in public speaking.

You are currently a Principal Associate at Kochhar & Co. Can you tell our readers about your responsibilities there? Does it vary majorly from the responsibilities you had at Fox Mandal & Associates or at AMSS?

I am currently taking care of the litigation vertical of Kochhar & Co., Hyderabad which is overseen / supervised by the resident partner, Ms. P.V. Aruna Kumari. My team consists of one Senior Associate and three Associates. I primarily take care of the execution of work in litigation. I am fortunate to have a partner who gives me enough independence to handle the matters from start till end. I involve myself in all the litigation related work, from holding initial discussions with the client to strategising the case, suggesting way forwards, drafting pleadings, briefing of counsels, and representation before courts. I also delegate the work among my teammates with respect to drafting of pleadings and representation before courts. At Kochhar, I have got the opportunity of independently conducting the case from start till end including arguing and winning few cases without the engagement of senior counsels.

At Fox Mandal, I joined as an associate with just one year of post qualification experience and most of my practical learning has happened at this place. I rose from a junior level to senior position at this place, winning the confidence of my seniors and partners from time to time. I had also interned at this place during the third year of my law school. At Fox Mandal, I used to be a major support to my litigation partner in the form of drafting pleadings and legal opinions. My senior used to appreciate my drafting & research skills, pro-active approach in taking up assignments and out of the box thinking quality on the issue at hand which has developed confidence in my abilities. I have grown as a professional during the span of my 5 year tenure at Fox Mandal.

Coming to AMSS, I was recruited for its Mumbai office through my campus placement and worked there for about a year. AMSS has offered me a great learning curve and exposure at the very nascent stage of my career. Working with the best law firm of the country at the initial stages of your career and trying to cope up with the demands and pressure of such top tier firms would make you strong enough to take up challenges with ease going forward. I used to mostly be involved in drafting and research work and also used to accompany my seniors and partner for briefing sessions with the senior counsels.

You have worked with some of the best firms in the country. Could you tell us about the atmosphere in each of the places and what one should keep in mind before joining?

It depends upon whether you are joining as a fresher or a lateral with good amount of post qualification experience. Work atmosphere in almost all the leading firms is similar, and it largely depends upon the team you are placed in and the kind of senior you would be attached to. I was fortunate to have wonderful seniors who guided and motivated me well at all the places I have worked at so far. As a fresher, it’s important to get into a job though it is in a mediocre firm with less pay. One or two years of practical experience at mediocre firms may fetch you good opportunities at tier one firms. So, at the initial stage, one should concentrate more on learning rather than earning. Money comes in with experience. It is always advisable to join a firm where you have work life balance.

Any parting words for our budding lawyers?

Love your work. Only dedication, consistency and perseverance can take you to reach greater heights in your profession. If you win the confidence of your senior / partner by taking up initiative at work and possess good analytical skills in strategising the cases more so in litigation, then rest assured that the sky is the limit for you. Needless to emphasise that you must have a work life balance and give sufficient time to your family. Having said that, I must thank my wife for being quite patient, supportive and understanding since I give a miss to work life balance on several occasions J

Zubin Pratap graduated from NLSIU, Bangalore in 2003. After working at Amarchand & Mangaldas & Suresh A Shroff & Co for one and a half years, he moved to Luthra and worked there for a short period. Thereafter Zubin moved to Melbourne and in 2007 he found a role at Baker & McKenzie where he went on to join General Motors in a secondment, Zubin continued at Baker & McKenzie till October 2010.

Soon Zubin joined Telstra and is currently a New Business Development Manager there, he has been in the organisation for the last six years.  He has served as a Board Member at Communication Rights Australia. He founded NobleGenie which seeks to change the way we seek and obtain specialised information from qualified experts by being the first step in a search for quality advice and information from an ecosystem of professionally qualified advisors, and recently Zubin also created an app called Remynd which works as a mind mapping software.

In this interview he talked to us about:

• Interning at the United Nations office of Drugs and Crime in Vienna
• Balancing his passions and his interest in music and stand-up comedy along with work
• His journey from working at a corporate law firm to moving to Telstra
• His experience as an Indian lawyer working in Australia

Could you tell us a little about yourself please? Just by way of introduction to our readers.

Well, my name is Zubin Pratap. I was born in Bangalore, raised in both Bangalore and Delhi and went to NLS to study law. I love music, still play the guitar and sing and I read a lot – mainly in science, philosophy and psychology. I am a nerd, and proud of it! I love dogs. I had a relatively privileged childhood – good education, stable and doting family, great friends and no real hardships to speak of. I moved to Australia nine years ago, and am now settled in Melbourne.

You were an international moot participant and debater while at NLSIU and took part in many extra-curricular activities. How did you ensure you maintained a balance with academics?

Balance? Ha! I’m sure some of my classmates would question my “balance”! I did what I enjoyed and felt passionate about, be it academics or otherwise. But I always had high energy and drive.I believe that having fun makes work more playful. That pretty much became my guiding principle – if I am not having fun, why am I doingit? And if I am having fun then long hours melt away and the efforts you put in are hardly tedious.

At present you are pursuing an Exec MBA from IE Business School in Madrid. What was the thought process behind choosing that course and that business school?

After 11 years in corporate law I was at a crossroads – I had to choose between continued success and “seniority” in law and putting myself in the way of new opportunities. By then I had also come to question what it was that truly motivated me. The pursuit of excellence drove me to NLS, but at 17 you’re far too young to intelligently realise what you mean to do with your life. I wanted to push myself in new directions because I have a strong curiosity and am relatively fearless about failure. I’ve discovered that I’m most happy when I’m slightly out of my comfort zone and learning something very new.

When I was offered an opportunity to move into the business side at Telstra, I felt it was an opportunity to re-invent myself. I was curious – what would happen? What would success look like? What would disaster look like? Would it be as risky as people said? Would it be as scary as everyone promised? Will I love or hate it? But to optimise my ability to switch careers after a decade, I chose a program that let me study and work at the same time. It was an accelerated program that I had no choice but to complete in a short, 15 month sprint. It literally is sink-or-swim at the IE Global Executive MBA program. Its top 6 ratings, the calibre of the cohort, and the fact that it emphasises a more holistic view of management and growth (as opposed to only rapacious profiteering) appealed to me immensely. Once again, I feel privileged to be a student with some incredible achievers. It is, however, the hardest test of discipline and intellectual stamina I’ve ever undertaken. But if you’re not slightly daunted by your choices, you’re too comfortable. Right?

You recently created an app, Remynd! What inspired that and what does the app do?

Two things impelled me to do it: First, when I finished school in ’98, the internet wasn’t really a huge thing yet. Google was still a box mounted on a Lego frame. The world really was different. I’ve always regretted that I never learned to code. So I did. Well, a little bit.

The second factor was that I had noticed that the busy-ness of life imposes a giant burden on our short term memories, which are notoriously short term. This is a feature of “cognitive load”. We are literally loading our brain with all kinds of working memory tasks that are tiring. I really believe that technology requires us to remember less but process a great deal more – and for that you need to free up brain power (like CPU power). Our minds should be augmented by the tools we use. I decided to do something about it. So ReMynd was born. I was working in Jakarta on a JV at the time and kept forgetting all the things I wanted to say to my boss, back in Melbourne, each time we spoke! There was just so much going on! And emails added to inbox clutter. I realised that there is nothing out there that brings up a specific mental note when a specific person calls or texts. ReMynd solves the problem of forgetting “notes to self” where you need to say something to someone when you next communicate with them. Its on Android for now and I’m working on newer features. But it is more of a way for me to learn and do something new – not really a startup.

When did the interest for music and stand-up comedy grow? Were they areas you were able to sustain while studying?

I’ve loved music since I was a baby. I was literally named after Zubin Mehta for that reason! I learned the guitar in my teens (but I regret never having learned to read music). I love performing and public speaking. And in the 90s, and early noughties, stand up wasn’t a feature in the Indian pub and bar scene. I’d always been very curious – litigation felt easy compared to stand up. A stand up gig and a courtroom have very different kinds of judging going on! Melbourne has an active scene and it was a really fun way for me to meet people, sharpen my performance skills, be creative, and say things on stage that I cannot usually say at the dinner table. It was a license to speak plainly – how could I resist? As for sustaining these things – taking time off study is as important as studying. Very few things soothe the soul like friends, music or laughter. Nothing dissipates stress like a good chuckle or a great tune.

We see that you rehabilitate racing grey hounds once their careers end. Would you urge every student to take up and promote a cause?

Yes I used to be a rescue and foster carer for greyhounds. I no longer have the right circumstances to foster but I do remain active in promoting awareness.  I think every human being should believe in making a change somewhere. But what they choose to make a change in is entirely up to them. I don’t like people who treat causes as though they’re a badge of honour or a way to distinguish themselves. Believing in something and trying to make a difference is a deeply personal thing and ultimately it’s got to align with whatever you value. I would urge people who feel that they have something to contribute, to contribute – no matter what it is. Don’t judge yourself and give yourself permission to believe in what you do. Just remember J.S. Mill’s words: “Your liberty to swing your fists ends just where my nose begins”.

Tell us a little about your stint at the UN.

It was an internship at the UN Office of Drugs and Crime, in Vienna. The UN Convention Against Corruption was in its final stages of negotiation at the time, and it was a fantastic experience to witness world leaders negotiate delicate matters that had cultural, economic, political and linguistic nuances. It was also my first time working overseas for a longer length of period and I had a fantastic time. Most importantly I realised just how necessary a good, strong education is for one’s confidence and that how Indians are really quite impressive even with structural and infrastructural disadvantages – somehow we manage to win with less and that creates confidence.

When did you decide on corporate law and why? Were there any particular measures you began to take to prepare yourself for success in the field?

I found myself slightly disillusioned with litigation in India after about 2 years of practice. I also developed an urge to see how others lived and worked in other countries. I was deeply ambivalent about corporate law. I had mistakenly bought into the disdain that was popular in the 90s that corporate lawyers weren’t “real” lawyers. But I absolutely loved it. It appealed to my need for quick, conclusive results and a sense of impact. I also loved that negotiations required finesse, EQ and persuasive logic. It was a big change from the primacy of precedent – and I found that I could be creative in my advice to clients. I then got an opportunity with Baker & McKenzie in Melbourne and that was my “big break”. It brought me closer to business and prepared me for the tech revolution that followed.

Had I remained in litigation, I don’t believe I would have had quite the ring-side view of the revolution that was taking place in the mid 2000s. I guess, in hindsight, I didn’t really have measures to prepare myself for success. I just stayed true to myself – I did what I really wanted to do, even if it was unorthodox, and enjoyed myself thoroughly and that brought modest successes, new opportunities, learnings and skills.  I think that is something we could do better – be true to ourselves. Too often we make choices that others will approve of and follow convention because we assume that people older than us know a great deal more about what makes us happy. But while we choose to please others in our acts, we are alone in managing the consequences. Ultimately, it is our life. If we take ownership over our life, then we make choices true to ourselves, even if others disagree.

As a highly commended team leader, would you please share a few pointers on how to do the same effectively?

This is old wine in a new bottle – but it is 100% true. You can’t lead well unless you’ve followed well. To follow well you must be self-aware –know what drives you, what upsets you or impairs you, what you love and what you merely tolerate. Knowing these things help you to understand just how hard it is to lead people – because ALL people feel these things, but in different ways. Therefore, to lead well you need to have an excellent memory of how YOU felt when you were poorly led or poorly motivated. That will give you empathy to perceive the consequences of your words and actions on those that follow you and remind you that people have feelings and feelings are powerful motivators or impediments.  If you lead people with emotion backed by reason, people will outdo themselves. And that is the goal of every leader – to help others outdo themselves.  The best feeling is when you see the surprise in their eyes – when they’ve literally surprised themselves with their ability and achievement. There is no greater professional joy.

What areas do you focus your reading on? How, in your opinion, should law students approach the task of selecting their reading material?

I read whatever is of interest. I don’t follow politics very closely. I am partial to science, philosophy, psychology and tech. I think it’s harder than ever to decide what to follow. But everyone needs to realise that it’s like drinking from a firehose now. So you must accept that a choice is inevitable. Prioritise what matters to you (its personal and always valid  – don’t let people con you into thinking there is superior reading and inferior reading). Ultimately YOU must get value out of it. That’s the only test of your choices – do you get satisfaction out of it.

What work do you currently do for Telstra?

I’ve actually just taken on a new role. I now do New Business Development – my mandate is to help identify, partner, prototype, validate and commercialise new business opportunities that will drive new revenue growth for Telstra. It is, quite literally, the most exciting thing I could do right now with my life and energy. Every day I will get to work with brilliant people, building and testing ideas, gunning for excellence and doing some new, innovative and game changing businesses. I left the law about 18 months ago. In the interim, I was in channel and commercial management – running deals with our distribution and channel partners.

In 2014, you founded NobleGenie. Will you elaborate a little on that please?

It was a brief experiment. I had started teaching myself about tech, startups, entrepreneurship, design thinking, innovation and problem-solving. I had also just bought a house. I realised that in Australia property is a big part of the “story” of a person’s life – up there with graduation, turning 21, finding love, etc. I also noticed that you need an ecosystem of professionals – an advice marketplace – of lawyers, conveyancers, accountants, financial advisers, mortgage brokers etc. NobleGenie was going to be a platform that brought together these professionals to respond to client queries as a way to win the confidence of clients.  Professional services is a “credence good” – we can never really know the quality of the service (advice) and we are totally dependent on trust when handing over our money. It is not like a car that you can test drive. By having peer reviewed interactions to discrete queries, I felt a system could be designed whereby clients can “test” their professional advisers-to-be. It also helps professionals to build their profile and for the legions of practitioners who want to freelance or work flexible hours, to build their practices. Sadly, i couldn’t spend the time that was required of me on it due to my work commitments (in Jakarta for 2014!) and after completing the coding for the site, I elected to move on to other projects.

What was it like as a Board Member of Communication Rights Australia and how were you placed on the Board?

I wanted to volunteer my skills for an organisation that could do a lot more with it than I could on my own. I applied, interviewed for the position and joined the board. What amazes me about the NFP sector is that people are so passionate and motivated about causes  and they aren’t even paid for most of it. Its volunteer based. As a leader, it presented me with a fantastic way to observe how people are motivated without financial gain. There are many studies that show that monetary incentives actually impair the quality of work done. Intrinsic motivation is dramatically more effective – and I can empirically confirm this! I also learned that it doesn’t matter how “senior” or “accomplished” a person is – they are very human, with frailties, foibles, weaknesses, blindspots and flaws just like any of us. That gave me confidence that there is no “secret sauce” or mysterious ability – we are all perfectly capable of excellence and our beliefs limit us more than our abilities.

Now you live in Melbourne. What is your experience as an Indian lawyer in Australia?

I have had a great experience here. Most of all I’ve learned about competing globally, and not being parochial. Things have changed a lot since 2007 when I moved here. Globally, it’s become harder to move as a lawyer. It’s actually harder for all jobs really, but law has the added challenge of requiring re-qualification in each new jurisdiction.

What would be your message to our readers who plan on launching a career abroad?

For those who want to try and work overseas, I would say think very carefully whether you want to stay in the law or not. Living overseas and experiencing the cultures the world has to offer is (for some) more valuable than a given profession. It’s very hard to move as a lawyer – there are only 2-3 places you could go to realistically. And it’s a lot of effort. If you decide to leave the law do it early – it gets exponentially harder after 5 years. If you’re staying in the law, then start by moving to a place that recruits foreign lawyers actively – but recognise that it is a long hard slog and presents much more uncertainty.

If you want to launch a life or career or project abroad, the best advice I can give is that the world and the people are not what you think they are – some are better, some are worse – but it’s always different. So don’t take your plans and yourself too seriously. And be adventurous. Your rewards are rarely what you aimed for, but that makes them more interesting.