Ameeta Duggal graduated in law from Campus Law Center, Delhi University, in 1991. She started her career with Mr. Ashwini Kumar, former Minister of Law and currently the special envoy to Japan. She then worked briefly with Amarchand Mangaldas Shroff before joining Associated Law Advisers. Ameeta was awarded a British Chevening Scholarship by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to study at the College of Law, York from 1996 – 1997. Thereafter she worked briefly in the London office of Clifford Chance, one of the world’s largest law firms before returning to India. Ameeta founded DGS Associates in 2004.

In this interview we speak to her about:

• The legal industry in the ’90s
• Working at AMS
• Winning the British Chevening Scholarship by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

I am a somewhat unconventional lawyer who has always tread the unchartered path. There has been no planning that has gone into charting my professional growth. This has helped me in exploring various areas of law, which may have been lost to me had I proceeded with a predeteremined growth trajectory. I do not believe in compartmentalising my practice areas and have tried to explore various aspects of law. I started my professional career as a pure litigator and have continued to keep litigation as one of my practice areas irrespective of the fact that over the years I have moved to a completely different line of practice, being my trade laws practice, which I started in 2008. I believe that my strength lies in drafting and negotiations rather than arguing in Court. While I am immensely passionate about my work, I ensure that it never deprives me of my love for travel so I strive to make my work complement my travels to the greatest extent possible.

Tell us a little about your days in law school.

I studied law from the Faculty of Law, Campus Law Centre, Delhi between 1989 and 1991. In those days, Law was a residual career option since majority of the law students were writing their Civil Services exams. There were just a handful of us who were there to pursue law as a career option. The others just wanted to have a Plan B should they fail to clear the Civil Services exam or such other options.

Having come from an all girls’ college, Lady Shri Ram, life in he Delhi University campus was an experience with a varied mix of students. One of the incidents that has, however, stayed with me is from a class in Negotiable Instruments. In my first semester, one of our Professors had asked us a question pertaining to the bouncing of a cheque and I remember getting up and saying that “my common sense tells me…” The professor told me something that I have never forgotten. He said that we must always remember that law is not about “common sense” but what is provided in the statute. Over the years, I have often been reminded of this saying and how true it holds.

What are your areas of specialisation in law? 

Specialisation in a given field of law is a fairly recent practice in Law. During our days at the Law Faculty we neither specialised in any specific area nor were we required to intern. Those who belonged to a family of lawyers may have spent time interning. But the rest of us had not seen a lawyers’ chamber till the time we started to looking for work. Accordingly, there were no areas of specialisation but we had areas of interest. I was always interested in contractual and corporate laws. We, however, did not have the option of International trade laws as a subject.

I personally do not conform to specialisations. I have always been open to assisting a client with all areas of law. The only distinction I draw is between civil and criminal laws and I have stayed away from criminal law in all my years of practicing law. Other than that I have worked on varied assignments, including environmental audits, project financing, mergers & acquisitions, International commercial arbitrations and litigation (both as a Government and private counsel). It is only recently, that I have started focusing more on International trade and mergers & acquisition as my preferred areas of work.

While on the issue of specialisation, I would like to share one of my experiences at Clifford Chance when I was working with them briefly. One morning we received a fax from a client with some four to five questions, including queries on tax and securitisation. The fax was shared across three floors depending on the areas of  law involved. This was in my initial week at Clifford Chance. Having worked in India for a few years by then I was somewhat surprised since in those days, a client query like that would have come to our table in India and we would have responded to all of them, more like a single window clearance. In my opinion, it is more comforting for a client to go to a single person for advice rather than being sent from one team to the other.

How were the first few years after your graduation? 

Unlike today, when students spend considerable time interning and gaining practical experience, for us studying Law was essentially an academic exercise, which guided us through the legal fundamentals and taught us what and how to look for the answer to a query received from a client. However, what we learnt at the law faculty was far removed from the real world practice. Objectively speaking we cannot be taught how to be a lawyer sitting in a classroom. Legal practice can only be learnt standing in a courtroom, sitting in a board room negotiating across the table or sitting across a Government authority proposing policy changes.

This is where I owe a lot to the chambers of Dr. Ashwani Kumar (including my gown, which traditionally is presented by one’s senior) with whom I worked for almost a year. We used to be paid pittance in those days but the experience we gained was immense. Dr. Kumar was in those days a standing counsel for the Delhi Electricity Supply Undertaking (DESU), one of the biggest litigators in the Delhi High Court. On any given day we had at least ten to twelve cases listed in the High Court and we had no option but to start arguing from the very first day. Credit is also due to the judges who encouraged freshers to seize the opportunity and argue rather than seek an adjournment on the ground that the senior lawyer was unavailable. I have had a very special hearing before a Division Bench of Justice B.N. Kirpal (former Chief Justice of India) and Justice Sunanda Bhandare, who coaxed me into arguing a petition in the very first month of having joined Dr. Kumar; guiding me through the arguments and eventually dismissing the petition in my favour. Those were days filled with excitement and exhaustion but the thrill of getting a good order from the High Court was priceless. I learnt to be a lawyer overnight.

Tell us about working at a Tier-I firm such as Amarchand Mangaldas Shroff.

Amarchand Mangaldas Shroff is  undoubtedly a sought after firm now and also in those days when it was not so huge. I had the privilege of working directly with Pallavi Shroff and her team, I realised in my first few days there that I was not meant to work in a big law firm. I tendered my resignation within weeks of my joining that firm to move to a start up firm, Associated Law Advisers (ALA), which was still getting established in terms of office space. I spent almost eleven years with ALA and left only to start my own law firm.

ALA is where I grew as a lawyer. We started as a small team of four lawyers (two partners and two associates). Each one of us supported the other and we learnt to do everything on our own – from filing to researching to drafting to appearing in courts and before arbitrators and to do large sized acquisitions, legal and environmental due diligences. My first acquisition was when Whirlpool acquired Kelvinator. I learnt as we moved through the acquisition and all credit goes to my partners, Mr. O.P. Bhardwaj and Ms. Lira Goswami, who never hesitated in giving us complete charge of a client file while keeping a broad check on the deliverables. I owe my growth as a lawyer to my years in ALA.

Tell us about winning the British Chevening Scholarship by the Foreign Commonwealth Office.

Applying for the British Chevening Scholarship was almost an accident. My then senior partner, Lira Goswami, mentioned the scholarship while we were waiting for our matter. From Court I went to the British Council to collect the form only to learn that I had just a day to submit it. Of course, I never expected to be selected but I did get an interview call. The interview panel comprised two faculty members of the college of law, York, a senior counsel from India and a representative of the Foreign Commonwealth Office. The counsel posed some direct questions on the various provisions of the Companies Act. After having fielded a few questions I remember telling him that as a lawyer I am aware which legislation I need to check but I was not aware of each and every provision of the Companies Act. The intent was not to be rude but it was an irrational expectation for a young lawyer to be familiar with more than 500 provisions of the Companies Act. I do believe that this response got me the scholarship.  

How was your experience at College of Law, York?

We were a group of twelve lawyers from all over India who were sent to the College of Law, York. Most of us were travelling outside India for the very first time and we were indeed an excited bunch of young lawyers who landed in York. The course was very thoughtfully conceived with an amazing faculty. We forged new friendships, not only within the group but with other law students at the College and with our faculty. The friendships have continued and we also continue to be referral partners for each other.

What made our days at the College of law most memorable and fun filled is the fact that we were all practicing law already and had the security of having a job waiting for us back home. That sense of security eased the pressures and made the entire programme a huge learning experience. We got an opportunity to work with some of the biggest law firms in London.

Which is the ideal time to do an L.L.M?

From my personal experience,  I would recommend pursuing LL.M. only after having gained some work experience. I believe a LL.M. programme will be far more beneficial and focused if pursued after a few years of practice.

Please elaborate on your work experience at Clifford Chance.

The scholarship offered by the Foreign Commonwealth Office comprised two sections. First was a programme at the College of Law, York and second was a work stint at the law firms selected and allotted by them. I was sent to Clifford Chance as part of that programme. Working in a huge law firm like Clifford Chance, which at that time was the biggest law firm globally, was an experience in itself. It gave me the confidence to be able to stand on my own in the midst of an ocean of lawyers. Although I was offered a role in the firm, I longed to return to ALA and declined the offer. I have not regretted my decision ever as I do not think I would have evolved into a risk taking lawyer that I am today if I had worked in the secure confines of a large law firm as opposed to a small boutique firm like ALA.

What or who motivated you to take the leap of faith to found your own law firm?

DGS Associates owes its existence to ALA and the work culture that we imbibed there. The sense of self sufficiency and independence instilled by Mr. Bhardwaj and Lira gave me the courage to move out and start my own firm. Having worked with ALA since the days when the ALA office was being first set up, I was already familiar with the grind that setting up of a law office entailed. However, the thrill of starting one’s own practice is unparalleled.  

Although I moved out of ALA with another lawyer there, Niti Sudhakar, we never really severed our ties with ALA. This was easy since we did not try and leave with any existing client of ALA. We moved out without any announcements and started afresh. Admittedly, those were challenging times as we had no continuing client. However, our friendship gave each of us the strength to persevere and that friendship continues to be the central pillar on which DGS stands even today.

With regard to DGS Associates, what is your vision for the firm?

At DGS, we pride ourselves for being completely relationship driven, be it with our staff, colleagues or clients. We are a small firm with a very congenial atmosphere. We would want to continue with that. We see ourselves as a well entrenched boutique law firm where the client comes never to leave. Our clients treat us as part of their management and we are happy to be in that space. We work with huge corporates as well as mid to small sized companies and individuals. We promote start ups and have always advised them basis the understanding that if they ever get funding they will pay our legal fees. The virtues of strict timelines and economies are deeply entrenched in our work culture and we never miss our deadlines. DGS has a very different work culture where associates are expected to act responsibly and independently. The stress is on timely delivery and quality output rather than the number of hours that they put in at work.

Give us a brief capsule of the life of a partner and your average working day experience.

True to the spirit of DGS, we try and maintain a balance between our work and personal lives. While we are at work, the office functions almost like a library with very focused work but we try and shut office in good time so that we all can head back home to spend time with our families. Without compromising on our work commitments, the partners also ensure time out together. Increasingly, there is lesser time available with our travel and work commitments but we always make an effort to optimise our time off. The firm has a policy of all lawyers lunching together so as to be able to get to know each other at a personal level.

Is there any other suggestion you would like to give to our budding lawyers?

I can only say that as budding lawyers give your profession all you have as this is the time when you have the energy and enthusiasm to focus entirely on work. Be open to doing all kinds of work at your work place. It gives you a better appreciation of the work that is happening around you. Most importantly, I always encourage budding lawyers to gain some experience in litigation since you cannot be a complete lawyer  without knowing how your judicial system works and how the judges think when dealing with a given dispute.

Apurva Agarwal graduated from National Law School of India University, Bangalore, in 1999. Soon after, he started work with Shah Desai Doijode & Phatarphekar.  He then pursued his LLM, with a focus in Corporate and Commercial Laws, at Bond University, Australia, where he achieved academic distinction when his name appeared on the Dean’s List.  Upon completion of his LLM he returned to India where he worked for DSK Legal (formerly Andersen Legal India) and Luthra and Luthra Law Offices.  He now has his own firm, Universal Legal.  His areas of expertise include Real Estate, Corporate and Commercial, Medical, Intellectual Property and Media. His articles have been published in various newspapers and magazines.  

In this interview we speak to him about:

• Working at Luthra & Luthra
• Starting his own firm
• Being a first generation lawyer

What motivated you to pursue a career in law?

I have always wanted to be a lawyer. And being a first generation lawyer at that made it all the more challenging. 

Tell us a bit about your time at NLSIU, Bangalore.

Studying law was challenging as the methods adopted in NLSIU were different. It was not lecture-oriented but discussion-oriented. Students were expected to read before coming to class, so that a healthy discussions could happen. It was an initial shock to me coming straight out of school to this. I come from an all-boys school, hence interaction with girls on campus was a pleasant surprise. Further, the faculty included stalwarts like Dr N R Madhava Menon, Dr. N. L. Mitra, Prof. S. V. Joga Rao, etc. which gave us perspectives of law beyond our imagination. Also, we had practicing lawyers coming and sharing their experiences with us , which allowed us to have practical insights to law.

Did you take part in co-curricular activities while in college? 

Yes, I did take part in co-curricular activities. I participated in a few moot courts—although, with rather unsuccessful results, I should add. I helped the institution organise several conferences.  The highlight was, when I led a team to organise an international conference on Human Rights in association with Interights. The conference was attended by 40 odd judges including Chief Justices from across the world, including Dr. A. S. Anand, the then Chief Justice of India.

What were you areas of interest during your legal education?

I was interested in doing Corporate Law. However, when I got into practical world and started working, real estate and succession planning became my forte. In fact, I have also authored a book on real estate called Layman’s Guide to Property Transaction Rights.

What are the causes you feel strongly about? 

We need to simplify the laws and legal writings so that a common man can understand it. I consciously wrote my book in a language other than English, to make it more accessible. Further, I conduct legal workshops and lectures through various fora to make people understand the same.

What advice would you give students in avoiding a decision paralysis?

Unless you want to get into academics or work abroad, pursuing further studies is not required. It’s better to dive into the big bad world headfirst. Practical experience is the best teacher.

How did you keep up with Bond University’s academic rigour? 

It was very exciting as you got to meet with students from across the world, which was not possible in India. It was a melting pot of diverse cultures. It was a confluence of various legal systems. The university expected very high standards of academic performance from all its students. The faculty was very approachable and friendly. We used to have lunches and drinks together and learn more outside the class than inside it.

Tell us about your early professional experiences at DSK Legal and Luthra and Luthra Law Offices. 

DSK Legal, through its managing partner Anand Desai taught me how to apply law to suit the clients’ requirement. The aim was to provide the client with the most appropriate solution. At the Luthra and Luthra Law Offices, I learnt to work against stiff timelines. The body of work was varied but mainly concentrated on Real Estate and Media.

Did you have a mentor or guide during the formative years of your career?

I did not have a mentor. I think it’s essential to have someone to look up to and guide you during the initial phase of your career.

How did you come to be the Founding Partner at Universal Legal? 

I was one of the first few recruits of Luthra and Luthra Law Offices, in Mumbai. This enabled me to get insight on how to establish a law office. This got me thinking, if I can do it for someone else, then why not for myself. We are a full service law firm. At the firm, we tried to incorporate all that we admire about reputable Tier-1 firms, and add a personalised touch to it. Also, we did not want to sit in office and idle our time. It was clear that people have to work long hours if there is work on the table. But if there are days, when there is less work, you are not required to sit in office. We believe in five day weeks and promote a healthy work life balance.

Do you consciously focus on building a specific body of work? 

Yes we do.

What are the challenges and learning opportunities that you have faced in your career so far?

The challenges are to constantly get work in the firm and keep abreast with the developments happening in the field of law. With the laws changing so fast and being adapted to new scenarios, we have to be on our toes.

How do you deal with the pressures associated with your position?

If you enjoy what you are doing, then there is no pressure.

What qualities and achievements do you look for in potential job applicants/ interns at Universal Legal?

The person should be willing to learn and have the basic knowledge of law. The person should have the ability to find the law and solution.

Can you describe the process that goes behind writing?

There is no processes as such. It’s the knowledge that we gather along the way gets translated into the writing.

How do you keep yourself updated about the latest developments in the law?

Reading and doing research. Also, by trying constantly reinvent myself

What advice would you like to give our readers, who are mostly law students and young lawyers?

Just be yourself and enjoy what you do.

Shubhangini graduated from Guru Gobind Singh Indraprastha University, in 2007. After having worked for five years in the IT and Telecom Industry, she decided to pursue higher studies and thus, completed her LLM in Corporate and Commercial Law from Queen Mary, University of London, in the year 2013, with specialization in Cyberspace, Privacy and Information and E-Commerce laws. Her forte has been Commercial Contracting with a focus on the IT (Software) sector. She is currently associated with Comviva Technologies Limited (a subsidiary of Tech Mahindra), as a Legal Counsel handling reviews and negotiations of commercial contracts along with providing general advisory as well as advisory related to employment matters. She has previously worked with Oracle India and British Telecom.

In this interview we speak to her about:

• The Indian legal education regime
• Studying in London
• Her experience in IT

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

I am a transactional lawyer, having worked in the field of Information Technology and Telecom for close to a decade. Quite contrary to the profession I’ve chosen for myself, I am an introvert at heart, and a not-so-social butterfly. But that has never deterred me from moving ahead in my career.

What motivated you to pursue law?

My Mother! She always wanted me to do something different. As a matter of fact, I was known to be a very argumentative child, as my father always observed and never failed to highlight, a quality which later helped me decide my future plans. My parents, being from the medical and teaching fields, encouraged my elder brother and me to pursue an unfamiliar path. Around that time, in the late ’90s, the usual career choices were either medical or engineering. My brother opted for hotel management, a career decision which many questioned, but supported by my parents, he proved himself in that field and is now doing very well in the hotel industry. When my time came, in early 2000, I did not wish to take up the regular courses, and of course had to follow in his stead, and thus chose between Law and Journalism. It’s a decision I am very proud of today.

Would you say that the teaching methods here and abroad are vastly different?

It would not be correct on my part to decide the level of difference in the teaching processes in India and abroad. Foremost reason being, that there is a vast difference in taking a course at an under-graduation level and post-graduation level. It was in India that I learnt the basics of education, and which brought me to the stage that I have reached. As part of my Masters’ degree in Law, I got the opportunity to be taught by acclaimed professors who were authorities in themselves. The focus of the professors is on imparting a practical sense of understanding rather than bookish knowledge. I am sure the same mechanism is being imbibed by faculty in India as well, making lectures more and more interactive. Unfortunately though, I have learnt the hard way that a Masters’ degree in Law, even from a prestigious international university, is not equivalent to an MBA. So, it is your basics which must be absolutely strong, and I believe, India has enough law colleges of repute which focus on the same.

How significant do you think internships are for law students? 

Internships must be made an integral and mandatory part of the law program starting from the first year itself. It helps in determining your likes and dislikes and paves the way for deciding which field to enter in the future. Of course, no one’s stopping you from choosing a different path even after! During my law school, I interned with several law firms, as well as with independent lawyers. It was because of this one internship with a Delhi based law firm in my fifth year which helped me get my very first job with British Telecom, a multi-national telecommunications company headquartered in UK. While I was interning I got a flavour of contracts, and got to know about the various terms which form part of contracts. It was a simple exercise of comparing two draft versions of a contract and highlighting the areas of difference. It may sound like an effortless job, but for a person still in law-college this was a very important piece of work assigned by a senior at the law firm. So I had to give it my best shot. In the process, I read through the entire contract, word by word, and few terms from the contract (which we call “boilerplates”) got etched in my mind (so much so, that even after eleven years, I still remember the name of the client whose draft it was, but for confidentiality purposes, will not pen down here). This simple piece of work helped me get my first job with a top MNC, while I was still in final year.

Did you have any mentor or guiding figure during your formative years as a lawyer?

I am a first generation lawyer, so it was not that I could rely on a lawyer in the family for deciding my career path or even understanding the nuances of law. My parents have always been my guides and mentors, and any and all decisions that I take, are taken giving due consideration to their advice imparted to me during my formative years.

What are your fields of specialization? 

My field of specialisation is reviewing and negotiating commercial contracts, more particularly software contracts. By way of qualification, I have specialised in e-commerce, privacy and data protection and cyber laws. It was during the initial six months as trainee at British Telecom that made me realise that commercial contracts were my calling. As I have primarily worked with Telecom and IT companies, it was an obvious choice to take up privacy, cyber laws and e-commerce as subjects of specialization given the fact that these are still considered niche and up-coming fields in India.

Having worked in firms like British Telecom and Oracle India, what would be your advice for job seeking aspirants?

From a value perspective, I feel that employers seek to engage with people who are sincere and committed. Unfortunately, integrity is a facet not seen in many. No matter what the situations and circumstances are, one should not deviate from the value of integrity. It goes a long way, and you will be remembered as an honest and truthful soul. From a work perspective, one should choose a career/job which one truly enjoys doing. Ultimately, it is your life and you alone should be responsible and accountable for the direction it goes in.

I find myself fortunate to have gotten the opportunity to work with big names like British Telecom and Oracle. But, it wasn’t an easy job. One has to be focused and driven by passion to achieve something. My first six months at British Telecom, which was my very first job, was about preparing an online contract repository, which quite literally involved typing/copying clauses from PDF versions of contracts and pasting them on an online tool which was developed for creating an online repository of contracts. It may seem a dull and monotonous piece of work (and which quite frankly it was!), but it really helped me understand contract terms and conditions – just imagine the wide range of clauses I would read day in-day out.

On what basis would you hire an intern?

First and foremost, the person deciding the selection should keep in mind that an intern is still a student, and should be treated as one. He or she comes with a passion and is full of vigour.  Having said that, the key quality that I would look for, while selecting, would be the individual’s enthusiasm and eagerness to learn. I firmly believe that one may not know all, but with a learning bent of mind, one can achieve anything. The other quality I’d look for in an intern would be a sense of commitment and dedication. Not that I would want my interns to slog the entire day, as I am also a firm believer of having fun at work, but, such fun should be accompanied by serious commitment towards work.

How do you stay updated on the latest legal developments?

I regularly read the newspapers, and articles from various legal news websites to abreast myself of the latest updates and developments. Also, as my husband is a litigating lawyer, we often have dinner table discussions around various topics.

What do you like to do when you’re not working?

I like to read. More than reading, I like to collect books and articles. Although I may not get the time to read much, I feel content in the fact that I have something to rely upon.

Any word of advice for our readers?

The key to real success is happiness and contentment. I believe in the fact that though commitment and dedication is an essential element of climbing the ladder of success, the most important one is being happy and enjoying the work you do. If you enjoy your work, you are happy, and if you are happy, then dedication and commitment will reflect in your demeanour, and success will automatically follow you.

Jeevan Ballav Panda graduated from Hidayatullah National Law University, Raipur, in 2008 with Distinction in Environmental Law and Intellectual Property Rights. He has experience handling litigation and arbitration proceedings including interaction with clients, liaising with clients/ counsel, undertaking legal research and formulating strategies, drafting and preparing pleadings, briefing and assisting counsel, regularly appearing and arguing matters before the Supreme Court of India, Delhi High Court, National Green Tribunal (Principal Bench, New Delhi), National Company Law Tribunal (Principal Bench, New Delhi), Debt Recovery Tribunal, Delhi and Arbitral Tribunals (both domestic and international).  He has also appeared before Calcutta High Court (Original Side & Appellate Side), Goa Bench of the Bombay High Court, Jharkhand High Court, National Green Tribunal (Southern Zone, Chennai), City Civil Court, Calcutta, District & Sessions Courts, Magistrate’s Courts, Labour Courts/ Industrial Tribunals, Consumer Forums, Trade Marks Registry and other administrative/quasi-judicial authorities.

In this interview we speak to him about:

• His time at HNLU
• Dispute Resolution and Environment Law
• His experience thus far

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

It is indeed my profound pleasure and privilege to give this interview. I would like to thank SuperLawyer for giving me the opportunity to help its followers in whatever possible manner.

I was from the science stream and was supposed to be a medical aspirant but destiny had some other plans and it was by chance that I ended up pursuing law in the first batch of HNLU. The five years of Law School saw a complete metamorphosis of my personality from an introvert and reserved individual when I joined in 2003, to pursuing Dispute Resolution practice after graduating in 2008.  Being in the inaugural batch of the university gave me much needed exposure and I thoroughly enjoyed the five years in law school by participating as a speaker in some of the most reputed Moot Court competitions across the world, participating in about a dozen seminars/ conferences, publishing about twenty articles, being the first in the university to do a foreign internship, first in the university to get a pre-placement offer (PPO) and ultimately  working in one of India’s oldest and leading full service law firms for the last nine years or so.

What motivated you to opt for legal studies after school?

As I said earlier, I was from the science stream and was supposed to be a medical aspirant, considering the fact that that was the most conventional career choice at the time. Law was never considered as a preferred career option then and was looked down upon and perceived to be pursued by those who did not have any future in engineering or medicine. Though I came from a family full of engineers including my father, sister, cousins and later my wife, I was personally never keen on pursuing engineering. I have always been fascinated with cars so my heart at some stage wanted me to pursue Automobile Engineering but my mind deterred me from doing so because even this field required studying some common subjects like other Engineering courses. I was also not confident of pursuing Medicine as a career option.

It would not be out of place to admit that right before my class 12 examinations, a discussion with my maternal grandfather Mr. Bisweswar Purohit (who is well known and a leading Advocate in Western Odisha) and whom I hold in high esteem really convinced me into pursuing law. My maternal grandfather who recently stopped practising after about 55 years of practice, was a self-made man and as a child I was always attracted towards the respect he commanded in society and the unlimited scope of emoluments the profession provided on being successful. As luck would have it  I did not score good ranks in the Medical or Engineering entrance examination and around the same time someone told my father in his office that with the advent of the five years integrated law course from National Law Schools, law has a great scope in the near future. On enquiry it transpired that the due date for appearing in the National Entrance Test (NET) of the then existing five National Law Schools were over. I was not interested in losing out a year by preparing for any course. Coincidentally my sister found a Newspaper Advertisement for commencement of HNLU and that the NET was scheduled two days after. I appeared in the NET by travelling to Raipur the very next day and when the results were out I was pleasantly surprised to have been shortlisted. That’s my journey of landing in a National Law School.

Give us a brief overview your HNLU experience.

In my opinion, five years of law school is a great opportunity for each student to experience the wide range of extra-curricular activities that it offers apart from the courses offered as part of the academic curriculum. When I graduated in 2008, an NLU tag possibly had more significance because NLUs were considered to be equivalent to IIMs or IITs for law and it gave you a good platform. Needless to mention, you still had to make good use of the platform and prove yourself. However, today with NLUs mushrooming across various states and several private and other law schools doing equally well in terms of exposure, faculty, and facilities, I do not think that not having an NLU tag is in itself a set-back, if otherwise the student is passionate about law and focused. The private and other law schools these days have discipline in their management and a wide variety in their course curriculum with mandatory attendance for classes, internships made compulsory and student exchange programmes with universities abroad providing excellent exposure and opportunities.

Being in the first batch of HNLU was in fact a blessing in disguise since it was a small batch of about 50 students from different corners of the country. We had the advantage of being taught by some of the most experienced and brilliant legal minds from across the world and also were usually the first choice for being considered for representing the university in any competition or forum. Moot Courts gave you popularity amongst the junior batches, even more than topping the semester and I realised it very soon. Apart from that, the in depth research and team work that it brought in motivated me to participate as a Researcher in the Surana & Surana Corporate Law Moot Court Competition in the second year of law school itself. Thereafter, I participated as a Speaker in various other Moot Competitions like Henry Dunant, Commonwealth, Murdoch University International Maritime Arbitration and Willem C. Vis International Commercial Arbitration (West) and gained experience which immensely helped me during my initial days as a qualified lawyer to cope up with the pressures of a matter. I participated in various seminars and conferences as a Speaker on contemporary issues/ subjects both in India and abroad.  I converted my project papers into articles and got them published at various national and international books and journals.

I utilised my extensive research work done at the Indian Society of International Law (ISIL) Library for the Murdoch University International Maritime Arbitration Moot Court Competition by applying and obtaining a month long Internship at Cocks Macnish, Perth, Australia before being joined by my team for the Moot Court Competition.

In your opinion, what are the activities that you would recommend as necessary experiences for every law student?

Internships, moot courts, client counselling, publications, seminars/ conferences, etc. are equally important as scoring good grades in the semesters. In my view, one should not lose out on the opportunities that the law course provides to a student because each activity has a significant role to build and shape significant skills like researching abilities, legal reasoning, analytical skills, confidence level, personality building, public relations, etc. which are indispensable in one way or the other for a successful advocate.

From your experience in legal writing, please share with our readers the kind of topics that one must write on if they hope to get their work published in reputed journals?

Writing is not something which came naturally to me. I tried to gradually improve this. In law school, I chose my project topics very carefully considering its relevance and wrote them after thorough analysis and research. Hence, it was easier to convert them into articles and make them worthy of publication. Writing article helps one to keep abreast with latest developments.

Even now, I continue to write articles and choose topics of contemporary relevance like the significant decision of the Supreme Court or a High Court on a particular issue, ambiguous/ conflicting legal position, absence of legislative framework or implementation mechanism in a particular field, comparative legal position across jurisdictions, change in law and implications thereof, etc.

For writing a good article to generate interest in the readers, originality, thorough analysis of the existing legal position and clarity of expression of views/ thoughts/ opinions are a must, apart from identifying the targeted readers. One should also consider his/ her own areas of interest before choosing a topic to write an article.

What kind of internships did you undertake during your student years?

I started interning with my maternal grandfather in the first year, followed by internships with the Senior Advocate in the Orissa High Court, Sandersons & Morgans, Kolkata, Khaitan & Co, Kolkata, Cocks Macnish, Perth, Australia and Zeus Law Associates, New Delhi. I did not have any references and managed to get confirmation for all my internships on the basis of personal application and calculated follow ups. With some contacts/ references maybe that I could have secured few more internships in other Tier I Firms, however there are no regrets.

I think these days securing a good internship is getting more and more difficult as the internships one gets is more to do with the contacts/ references one has. With a small legal fraternity and the increasing demand of students to pursue law, mushrooming law schools, the competition for securing an internship is increasing day by day with very limited number of slots left for internship through the internship coordination committee.

Choosing places for internship has got more to do with variety in the first three years of law school, such as NGOs, District Court, High Court/ Supreme Court and Company and narrowing down the choices in the fourth and fifth year depending on whether one is inclined towards Dispute Resolution or Corporate practice.

I still feel that one should make the most out of the opportunities that comes his/ her way. If one has options to choose from, then of course you can strategize and choose the internship that best suits your interests and profile in the longer run. I feel each internship opportunity is a chance of proving yourself and have an edge over others interning along and get noticed by the firm/ organisation. It is as good as giving an interview for securing a job on a continuous basis, with each day of your internship tenure giving an opportunity to exhibit your skill sets.

What are your areas of specialisation and how did you go about choosing these fields to specialise in?

In law school, our course curriculum BA LLB (Hons.) required us to choose two subjects as Honours/ Specialisation papers so I chose Environmental Law and Intellectual Property Rights. The choices were unconventional as majority of my batch mates chose Corporate Laws or the like. On the basis of my internships and inclination towards pursuing Dispute Resolution practice, I decided not to go with the herd mentality and saw lot of scope and potential in Environmental Law and Intellectual Property Rights in the near future. I could also secure Outstanding and Distinction Grades in both the Honours papers I chose. It is very important that one understands the relevance of a specialisation subject for himself/ herself and chooses the subject accordingly and not just for the sake of it or just because the majority is choosing it.

At what stage in one’s law school life must one pick a specialisation?

In my view, in law school one must aim at learning and understanding the basics right. After completion of third year, on the basis of internship experiences one can make a broad choice of whether he/ she has an inclination towards Dispute Resolution practice or Corporate practice. The specialisation/ Honours papers, if any, may be chosen accordingly. The internships for the fourth year and fifth year should also be streamlined and planned in such a way.

In my view, after graduating irrespective of whether one has chosen Dispute Resolution or Corporate practice, it is important to build up a strong set of basic skills. Dispute Resolution practice and handling Court matters gives you that much needed exposure. However, most of the firms do not give you that exposure and in the event you are hired for Corporate or Real Estate or Tax practice, you are trained for such specialised area of practice from the first day of joining. Some firms do have a rotation policy by which freshers are given exposure to different areas of practice including Dispute Resolution for a year or two. I strongly believe that for every law graduate it is important to do Dispute Resolution practice on general laws and make the basic and foundation strong in first two to three years of their career. This is very important because once you have your basics right, it is easier to pick up a specialisation.

Who was your mentor, or main source of inspiration who/which motivated you all along the way?

While my maternal grandfather Mr. Bisweswar Purohit has been my mentor and continues to be my constant source of inspiration, different people at different stages have played a pivotal role in providing me the right guidance and advice. Needless to mention that a mentor can only show you the path and what is right and wrong but to ensure that the path is followed and the suggestions are effectively implemented is still to be carried out by oneself only.

In my association with Khaitan & Co., I have had the privilege of assisting stalwarts of the legal profession like Mr. Ram Kishore Choudhury, Mr. Pradip Kumar Khaitan, Mr. R.N. Jhunjhunwala and Mr. Padam Khaitan, and directly working under their supervision, guidance and advice. Their experience and expertise inculcated in me deep rooted traditions of integrity, the ability to handle complex situations in life and in profession with ease, discipline, humility, meticulousness and how to continue hard work irrespective of your position and stature because there are no shortcuts in life and no substitute to hard work. Mr. Pradip Kumar Khaitan and Mr. R.N. Jhunjhunwala being the senior most Partners of Khaitan & Co. have been like family and all along led me as my guru, philosopher and guide. Presently, I have the pleasure of assisting Mr. Ajay Bhargava and Ms. Vanita Bhargava, who have two decades of experience in handling complex litigation in diverse fields of law and have their unique ways of approaching a legal issue. Their success and popularity at such a young age is motivating and inspiring.

What does it take to make the cut and land a Tier-I job?

Ownership and belongingness towards the firm, combined with hard work, dedication, and responsibility in what is entrusted to you is important to make the cut. Hard work, discipline, honesty, integrity, sincerity, loyalty and willingness to learn are the quintessential attributes of a lawyer which are indispensable for a prospective candidate, whether it is a Tier I Firm or any organisation for that matter.

What is the level importance given to a student’s Grade Point Average with respect to recruitments at Tier-I firms?

Grade Point Average may definitely give the student an edge over others on Day Zero to be shortlisted or interviewed by a Tier I Firm. However, mere Grade Point Average according to me is not adequate if the rest of the CV of the student does not reflect the overall outlook and personality required for the profile. An average student with better exposure in terms of internships and learning in those internships, moot courts, seminars/ conferences, publications, etc. may fit in to a role better than a topper of the batch with good Grade Point Average but no real exposure in terms of extra-curricular activities. I believe as a student of law it is important to be a Jack of all trades.

How do you say interns should go about their work at a firm like Khaitan, so as to get noticed in a positive way in the limited time they have?

Exhibit initiative and willingness to learn and having solution driven approach in the work assigned rather than sitting over the same work for days or weeks together without any progress. The four to six weeks tenure one gets as an intern is a golden opportunity to prove yourself and your skills every single day and project yourself to be better than the rest. Acclimatize to the working style and environment quickly, get involved with the work assigned, show ownership, responsibility and belongingness towards the legal issues and try to come out with high quality research and solution/opinion, as the case may be. Consider your internship as a now or never opportunity to get noticed (not only in terms of your talent but your behavioural skills as well) and secure a Pre-Placement Offer. I am sure such approach will have a lot of positive impact and definitely help in the longer run.

What does a regular work day look like for you?

In hindsight, I seem to have taken my school’s (DAV Public School) motto of “Work is Worship” quite seriously. I am a workaholic and passionate about what I do. As a Dispute Resolution lawyer the day usually starts with early morning conferences, appearances before Courts preceded/ followed by discussions/ interactions with counsel/ senior counsel or other legal professionals in Court while waiting for matters or after that, dictating matter updates for clients, arbitrations in the afternoon/ evening followed by drafting pleadings/ opinions/ preparation for the next day matters.

I enjoy the presence of the firm, complexity of the matters, court appearances, dealing with high profile clients and matters that it provides but at times it does affect your work-life balance, which one has to cope with and sometimes accept.

Is there any other suggestion you would like to give to our budding lawyers?

Be honest and sincere to yourself and understand your strength and weaknesses. Take your decisions rationally and not impulsively. Self-motivation and self-confidence is very important. Learn to stay grounded and lie low with humility irrespective of whether you are flying high or passing through a difficult phase in life. Everything is temporary and change is the law of nature. Be passionate about what you do and do it like no one else can do it better than you.

Harshleen Kaur graduated from University of Legal Studies, Panjab University, in 2015. During her time as an undergraduate, she has interned with the likes of Philips Electronics India Limited, Bharti Airtel Limited, Reed Elsevier, among others. She is currently in-house counsel at online shopping portal ShopClues.

In this interview we speak to her about:

• Her diverse internships
• Her time at ShopClues
• Being in-house counsel

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

Someone who aspired to become a designer but ended up becoming lawyer, as strongly enforced by destiny. Nevertheless, unquestionably an in- house legal counsel by dint of my peculiar, rather unconventional choice. I love my work and area of practice. I am extremely enthusiastic about my work and love to take up complex challenges. I believe in making and maintaining good relationships so that people remember me for the kind of person I am.

What motivated you to pursue law?

Well, I did not choose law as a career option until I was guided to do so  by my counselor. My initial aim was to get into one of the best design schools of India but was unsuccessful in clearing the requisite entrance exam. Disheartened with the result, I decided to visit a counselor as I was unsure about what I wanted to become and what options I had. My counselor after evaluating my skills suggested I become a lawyer. Convinced by his rationale and strongly believing the result of the assessment, I decided to pursue law. And as they say “what is meant to be always finds a way”. I was, perhaps, destined to be a lawyer.

Career counseling played a pivotal role in my life. I would strongly recommend students who aren’t very well versed with the options available to them or are confused about what do in life, to opt for career counseling. Career counseling seeks to help you pick out a career that is tailor made to an individual’s interest, aptitude, needs and personality. Hence, it helps you to choose the right career for yourself and ultimately leading to professional success and contentment.

What subjects did you take particular interest in during your law school days?

I loved studying Intellectual Property Rights. With the advent of information technology, which our generation has been an eye witness to, intellectual capital has gained substantial importance. With intellectual works being accorded the same protections that real estate or other forms of property enjoy under the law, intellectual property and rights attached thereto have become precious commodities and are being fiercely protected. Amused by the protections available I was and I am interested in learning more about the subject. But however, this was not a deciding factor in determining my career choice. Taking an in house-counsel role was primarily driven by my internship experience.

What kind of internships did you engage in during your student years?

I started with basic internships in Human Rights Commission and State Legal Service Authorities, Chandigarh.  These helped me understand the rights available under law to an aggrieved person and free legal aid services to certain weaker and underprivileged individuals in the society. It also helped me in understanding the procedure followed by Lok Adalats and appropriate skills required for amicable settlement between parties. I also visited the most special homes of India, a Juvenile Home in order to devise an acumen of the conditions, facilities, ideologies, sensibility of the inmates.

I then moved on to corporate internships so as to understand the nature of legal work embarked upon by the legal counsels in the companies. I interned at Philips India Limited in Gurgaon for a month and assisted their legal team in auditing the modern trade agreements and also supported them on a project regarding slum sale of audio-visual business of the company. I got a flavour of what an in-house counsel does and that inspired me to take up the legal profession as an in-house legal counsel. Since I had clarity about my preference for working as an in-house legal counsel, I focused more on corporate internships. I did my consequent internships in Bharti Airtel, Vasant Kunj and Reed Elsevier, Gurgaon. All my corporate internships helped me enormously to understand the basic skills which an in-house counsel is required to possess and a basic understanding of the applicable laws to various industries which do not form a part of the curriculum during the legal course.

Apart from corporate internships, as a part of academic internships I worked under various lawyers in District Court and Punjab and Haryana High Court at Chandigarh. I also interned as a law researcher in office of Justice M.S. Chauhan, Panjab and Haryana High Court under the ambit of judicial internship.

As per me all the internships are learning mechanisms where we can afford to ask silly questions and make mistakes. It helps us understand our weaknesses and turn them into strengths so that we becomes better and better in whatever area of work we intend to undertake.

When and why did you make the decision to be an in-house counsel?

Frankly speaking, interning or working in a law firm never fascinated me. I had heard enough stories from my peers and seniors on the amount of time they had to give in working for a firm. Everyone has a different personality and I strongly oppose stressful working hours, as I feel occupational stress impacts our overall well-being. Working in a stress-free environment intensifies one’s capabilities and I found that working as an in-house counsel you do not have to juggle between court and office that often, as compared to working in a firm. I was attracted to the working culture of the companies during my corporate internships.This work experience during my internships gave me the confidence that I am well suited for the profession and combined with my constant efforts to learn more on my own I felt well prepared for the corporate world. I focused on more corporate internships and remained in touch with most of the people I worked with. I was fortunate enough that the legal team at Philips remembered me even after two years of my internship and during my fifth year final exams, I was asked to join the legal team at Philips for an ongoing demerger project.

How were the first few years after your graduation?

UILS placements were a little difficult during my time. I was lucky to have a job before I finished with my final year. Nonetheless, the first six months were actually tough. Once you become an employee, you no more are treated like an amateur. There is no one to guide, teach or make you understand the rationales of any decision being taken. It was difficult for me because what you study in theory is not what you practice. Law school did not prepare me for the nuances of practical law. College was about attending lectures, participating in events and above all, making great memories with friends. The world seemed to be a new place when I moved from a small city like Ambala to a corporate hub like Gurgaon. But making mistakes and falling helped me understand that the glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time I fall. Hence, the toughest few months made me much stronger and confident to take up whatever came my way.

How does one go about securing an internship, and subsequently a job at MNCs?

MNCs are not very keen on getting freshers onboard. In fact all companies, MNCs or Indian companies prefer candidates for a fresher position, who have worked or interned with them before. This helps them know the qualities, capabilities and willingness of a candidate to learn and grow in their job. Grabbing an internship in an MNC can only be attained if you have some good connections, unless the MNC is in dire need of an intern and has posted in some job portal. In case companies do not visit the law school, recommendation is the best route which can be opted as per my view. One should try and find someone who works at the company and is willing to refer. This actually has an advantage in a way that you’ve got a kind of a middle-man between you and the company. Once should always focus on learning the maximum and building a good network. One should never forget that there are lakhs of candidates in the market, but what makes one standout from the crowd is the qualities of a team player, a peoples person, skills, applicability of existing laws and willingness to work hard. If the employer is convinced on these skills, getting the opportunity to work as an in-house may be certainly fulfilled.

Give us a brief overview of your current work profile with Shopclues.com.

First of all, I am glad that I chose a smaller company shopclues.com as compared to Philips. I was loaded with work when I joined, as the team was very small and was the second legal counsel to join. I got the chance to learn to a lot both on my own and with supervision of the existing members in the team. Working in a smaller rather than a larger company has allowed me to take on more responsibilities, be in a direct contact with higher management and  progress faster by understanding the business requirements  and develop essential legal skills.

As an in-house counsel you do a little bit of everything. There is work related to different areas like policy drafting, IPR litigation, compliance, transaction, acquisitions, and contracts. Since the company has a  global presence, international law also comes into play sometimes. As an in-house counsel you are expected to foresee potential problems  and stop them before they become a legal issue. It is more about working closely with business teams to identify legal issues and decide what type and level of risk is acceptable. One thing which most legal in-house counsels do not get the opportunity to do is litigation. But I am fortunate enough to have this area as a large part  of my responsibility. Working on existing IPR matters has helped me immensely to understand the procedural law. As an in-house one is suppose to strategise the matters keeping in mind the best interests for the company in a way which does not affect the business.

Is there any other suggestion you would like to give our budding lawyers?

It is very important for law students to choose their area of practice. I would advise all the law students to carefully and timely decide on what exactly they intend to take up. Stay abreast of legal developments. You must undertake as many and as diverse internships as you can and make the most of them. Know the limits of  your time and of your expertise. Understand the kind of work profile under different roles and make sure you develop a good relationship with all your assigned mentors during internships. No matter what you get as a remuneration or designation, if it is the profile you would like to work on, you must take whatever comes your way. Always remember that opportunities are like sunrises, if you wait to long, you miss them.

Rajiv Choubey graduated in law from Faculty of Law, University of Delhi, in 1999. He is also a certified Company Secretary. He then went on to pursue his LLM from Kurukshetra University in 2014. Rajiv is an in-house corporate counsel working for the last twenty years in the field of Corporate Laws (having handled M&A, JVs FDI Policy, Foreign Trade Policy, in bound & out bound, Securities Laws, Corporate Governance), Commercial Laws, International Trade Laws, Environment related laws, Electricity related issues, Industrial & Labour Laws, Economic laws-Excise, Service Tax, Customs and Foreign Trade Policy.

In this interview we speak to him about:

• His diverse experience
• Corporate Law
• Pursuing an LLM in India

What motivated you to pursue law?

I was born and brought up in Asansol in West Bengal. Honestly, as a kid I wanted to pursue sports and become a footballer. However, that remained an unfulfilled dream since sports wasn’t encouraged or taken seriously back then. I pursued commerce, which was another happy accident. I like commerce as a subject, which exposed me to economics and I developed a liking for the subject. While pursuing B.Com at University of Allahabad, I was introduced to Law of Contract as part of Business Law. A lot of credit goes to our teacher, Prof. Arun Garg, who taught “Contract Act” with a lot of passion and interest. He taught packed classrooms and his students admired him so much, that sometimes we stood at the back of the classroom for lack of space, just to hear his lectures.

Tell us a little about your days in law school.

The best part of the DU law curriculum is that it is based on case studies. The moment you get admission, as part of admission process they hand over a booklet of case studies. Initially, I could not understand, what kind of booklet is this? Then I understood the system of study, the method of citation. It created immense interest in me and it changed the entire approach to study law. The best way to study and understand law is the case based approach. It was completely different from the Business Law we studied during our graduation day.

What were the activities, academic or otherwise, that you undertook in your law school days which in your opinion have shaped you and your career?

When I did law, the number of activities were much less when compared to the present day. Further since I was also pursuing CS at the same time, I could not participate in many of extra-curricular activities.

Who was your mentor, or main source of inspiration who motivated you all along the way?

My teacher at Allahabad University Mr. Arun Garg and former boss Mr.Vinay Shukla (who himself is LLB and CS) and Mr.Vikas Goel (who is CA) always motivated and were sources of inspiration.

While working with Vedanta, Chairman Mr. Anil Agarwal and Vice-Chairman Mr. Navin Agarwal were great sources of inspiration. In one of my key matters, our Chairman made us believe that we can achieve something which we thought was impossible.  I had the opportunity to work with lots of colleagues at Vedanta and it was fantastic to work with them and handle some of key environmental issues and coming out successful. My current Group CFO, Mr. S.G. Murali is a great source of inspiration, as he leads by example. I am greatly privileged to work with some of great minds.

Are L.L.Ms absolutely necessary for a career in law?

I do not think so. At the same it is good if one can pursue the same from any foreign university, with specialisation in any particular area (say Competition law, IPR, M&A, etc.) which one ultimately desires to pursue. If someone wants to go into academics, LLM is a must.

What should one expect out of an L.L.M program, if they opt to pursue one?

I have expressed my views that LLM should be with the sole intention of obtaining specialisation in any particular area. One should always do the cost/purpose – benefit analysis before pursuing any further studies. Doing LLM from a foreign university also provides the global perspective and outlook, which is essential in today’s world, where one may be required to handle clients across the globe.

Why are students only considering universities abroad for an LLM?

There are good universities in India such as NLS, Bangalore, NALSAR, Delhi University and other National Law Schools. I think one of the reasons students go abroad is because the LLM there is only a year long. Now, even Indian Universities have switched to a one-year curriculum. However, the key reasons for pursuing LLM in foreign universities is that you get specialisation in one particular area, which one would like to pursue. Further, it provides you a global perspective, experience and access to some of best faculties.

One the issue of Indian legal education system (on LLM Curriculum), I feel Indian Universities need to upgrade their curriculum and focus on specialisation. Currently, it is more inclined towards an academic perspective. Universities can have two branches of LLM, one LLM (Specialisation) and the other LLM (Academic), the former being more inclined towards practice areas and other more inclined towards research and academics.

Which is the ideal time to do an L.L.M?

I am personally of the view that one should pursue LLM after at least five years of practice, when you feel the need to specialize in a particular area. The initial years of practice will provide clarity in terms of areas of interests, in which one would like specialise. It is like doing MBA after initial years of experience as post work-experience, one can appreciate various facets of management and can link it with their experience.  Ultimately, it is an individual choice as many people find it difficult to pursue LLM once they start working.

From your experience, would you recommend the corporate environment for fresh graduates?

(Rajiv has worked with several corporate giants such as Vedanta Ltd. and Maruti Suzuki before joining HCL Infosystems Ltd.)

Career is an individual choice. It also depends what is one liking, strengths. When I started my career, there was no concept of in-house legal counsel and only few MNCs like Hindustan Lever had strong in-house counsels. The role of in-house counsel in other companies was limited to attending courts on behalf of the company. However, the scenario today has completely changed post the 1991 Liberalisation policy. It took almost ten to fifteen years for the role of in-house counsels to shape up and take prominence. India today is an open economy but at the same time has a strong regulatory regime. Today, the exposure of corporates on some of key regulatory issues being faced in the telecom, coal, power, mining and other sectors has increased the scope and role of in-house counsels. I have been a witness to some key environment and mining issues and without the contribution of the in-house counsel/ legal department, it would have been difficult to successfully win the battle in court and clear the regulatory hurdles. Hence the in-house counsels used to ride pillion earlier, but now, they are at the helm of all corporate affairs. Be it advising on contracting, dispute resolution, M&A, structuring transactions, advisory, regulatory issues, or compliance, in-house counsels are playing a major role. Their role is comparable to what the HR Department used to do several years ago. Today HR has moved away from the traditional personnel and administration to more organizational development, strategic utilization of employees to serve business goals, talent management and development. Similarly, in-house counsel is to work closely with the business in terms of advising them on key issues and resolving the same to meet the business objectives and plans of the organisation.

Fresh graduates can look at working in-house as it offers you a variety of roles and is not limited to only doing a routine job. HCL offers opportunities in all facets of law, contracting, advisory, litigation. The Legal Department is mid-sized law firm, which deals with multiple customers and meets their expectations every day.  Since we are dealing with variety of issues, it is a real challenge in terms of delivery and at the same time upgrade ourselves with the latest of what is happening in law as well as in the industry.

What does a regular working day look like for you, as General Counsel of HCL Infosystems Ltd?

Prior to taking over as General Counsel of HCL Infosystems Ltd. in June last year, my entire experience was in the manufacturing sector. HCL being into distribution, services and system integration, the issues are completely different. The business model is different, the issues are different. Every day, we have different issues to handle. Since we participate in various bids/ tenders, we receive numerous requests for vetting from the business for RFQs/ RPFs other contracts with Business Partners/ Vendors/ Channel Partners. As I stated, we are in multiple businesses – distribution, services, learning, system integration, financial inclusions; every day is full of action. Apart for advisory, we also have to attend to the pre-litigation advise and strategize in all litigation matters, brief counsels etc. There is no time for the team to relax as it very action packed.

My previous organisation was into commodities/ natural resources, where issues were different. In HCL since you are essentially providing different services, as the in-house legal department, we are involved in advising the business in contracting, risk analysis/ mapping. Further, since in our business of providing services, they are always issues of recovery of money, which leads to multiple litigations, arbitrations. The in-house team also advises on many pre-litigation issues, which may be potential litigation issues. However, due to the intervention of the legal department, we are able to recover dues. I have felt that people in sales/ marketing and the delivery team are reluctant to take issues with the customer, even where we have delivered. Sometimes issues also arise with respect to understanding the contract obligations to issue such as drafting and put the perspective to clients/ customers. To bridge the gap, we have started an initiative called ‘Legal for Non-Legal’ where we will conduct workshops to improve the understanding of basic facets of law so that they can front face the issues in a better way and take care of the organisation interest. I have a big team of more than fifteen lawyers. Some of the lawyers have joined us at different level with two to eight years of practice. While they are good at general understanding of law, it is always better to improve their understanding or other facets of corporate laws. I have started internal workshop for my team for knowledge sharing called ‘Episteme’ where we discuss various changes/ developments in law, landmark judgments. One recent example is to update my team on the ‘Insolvency & Bankruptcy Code’ (IBC), which I felt was very necessary. There is no much to do and very less time.

If given an opportunity, what would you do differently in your career journey up to this point?

I could have practised at the Bar as I am the outgoing type. I love to take challenges, meet people and present my point of view. Further, when you are practising at the bar, apart from your practice and service to clients, you can also help people who cannot afford to engage a lawyer. Of course, there is still time and I can still purse the same.

A student should purse that career option, which he thinks he will be good at and which excites and interests him or her. Once should never try to emulate, seeing the success of others. Further, there is so short cut to success and one has to go through the rigour which is required to prepare oneself to be in a position to advise someone and to deliver to the satisfaction of the client.

Is there any other suggestion you would like to give to our budding lawyers?

When we pursued law, it was a profession where there was lots of struggle and there was lack of guidance. Being a first generation lawyer, there was no one to guide me. Initially I wanted to practice at the bar but people discouraged me saying it is very difficult. Because of my dual qualification of Law and CS, people advised me to join corporate, saying it is financially rewarding. I still feel that I should have practised at the bar.

My suggestion to young lawyers is to pursue their dreams – i.e., if they like litigation, they should follow the same and should not swayed by financial aspects. At the same time, if one likes advisory/ solicitor job, they should join a law firm, which has its own challenges. If one wishes to start their own firm, they should take the plunge early, may be after five years of experience. One needs self-belief and determination to start on their own. Today law as a profession is very rewarding and if one remains focused and willing to put in hard work, success is just a matter of time.

Young lawyers should be tech savvy as today technology is being used big time in law and hence traditional approach needs to be married with new tools being used to deliver to the satisfaction of clients. One more word of advice to young lawyers is that, today’s world is an era of specialisation. While one needs to have a decent understanding of various facets of law, only those who specialize and develop expertise will survive and be valued.

Sakshi graduated from Symbiosis Law School, Pune in 2010. She joined DSK Legal, Mumbai, right after law school and has been working there for the past seven years. Her primary focus currently is on corporate law which includes corporate transactions, corporate advisory and commercial contracts.

In this interview we speak to her about:

• Her time at Symbiosis
• Her internship experience
• Her role at DSK Legal

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

Independent of my work, on a personal level, I am a person who loves to travel and explore various aspects of a culture.

When did you decide to make a career in the world of law?

I was the first lawyer from my family in the recent generations. Initially my father would always encourage me to pursue Economics. However, post high school, I nearly took up Economics as my graduation subject. While discussing future possibilities with a friend of mine, I stumbled upon the opportunities which law could offer. I liked the knowledge and the opportunities it brought to the table.

How were your years as a student at Symbiosis Law School, Pune?

Coming from a relatively traditional city, Pune was quite liberal, I must say. Symbiosis Law School (SLS) had students who came from various parts of the world and different sections of the society with diverse thoughts. The five years at SLS helped me connect with such people ultimately contributing to my growth as a human being. My father being in a transferable job ensured we kept moving cities while I was growing up and this helped me connect with different people from different walks of life.

During my time at SLS, we did not have many internal assignments like they do today and therefore I had the luxury  to explore a variety of extra-curricular activities as well as carry out assignments outside of college. Having said that, academics and my grades have always been very important to me. Therefore, while I used the extra time to carry out extra-curricular activities which I can elaborate on a little later, I used a lot of my time to explore the city and nearby places. However, I never compromised on my grades. It is very important to strike the right balance between these two.

Did you take part in any extra-curricular activities?

College is where everyone finds his or her interest and mostly it is discovered through the trial and error method. Everyone tends to take part in things not solely because of their inclination or interest but also because they see their counterparts doing the same things and in the process, we find our muse. The same thing happened to me. Initially I engaged in several extra-curricular activities like moots, volunteering for different events including our college fest Symbhav. However, I think what I enjoyed doing most was the work I got to do as a part of the Human Rights Cell of my college. It was a very enlightening experience. During one of my assignments, I had to visit the women at the red-light area of Pune and encourage the use of condoms amongst them. This whole experience exposed me to the harsh realities of life which most of us have been fortunate enough to not be faced with. This is when I realized that it is us who must stand up for people who do not have the means to fight for themselves.

During your formative years as a student, what were your other fields of interest?

As indicated earlier, my father was (actually still is) in a transferable job and hence moving with him regularly I lived in multiple cities at different points in time. Every place was different in its own way, I made new friends and gained varied experiences. This is represented in my love of travel. Travelling can be inspiring and enriching. I also was a swimmer and represented some clubs that I was a part of. Dance and music have always been very close to me since I was in school.

What are your fields of specialization?

Here I must admit that DSK Legal has been kind to me. At DSK Legal, I have been fortunate to have had the opportunity to experience a large gamut of work, which has in fact allowed me to realise what my interests are. The best part of having to do a broad range of work is that it helps you decide where your interest lies, what you are good at and what challenges you while also giving you the legal knowledge and practical experience of how things are done. Over the years, I have got more focused on certain areas which have interested me, and accordingly, most of my work today would primarily focus on advising and assisting clients for their investments/acquisitions/mergers (both India and cross-border) across several industry sectors and advising global companies having an Indian presence under corporate and labour laws and commercial contracts. As a lawyer, you are always learning something new every day. This is what drives me on in this profession.

To find out what interests you and what challenges you, you must try out different things. Therefore, it is essential that in the initial years on the job you engage in a variety of work which can ultimately help you to make an informed decision. I know for a fact that doing a due diligence is not something that fascinates everyone, however, the amount of knowledge that one gains in the process is immense.

Could you please tell us about the internship programs you were engaged in?

When I was in law school, Pune did not have much of a presence of law firms as it does now. Hence, the period of your internship was limited to the vacation time which may not be enough considering there is so much to learn. However, I was very particular about one thing which was that I had to experiment with multiple aspects of the legal field. Accordingly, I started my internship with an NGO. After that I interned with a law firm in Bombay which primarily dealt with banking laws. Thereafter, I interned with a Senior Counsel in the Supreme Court, followed by an internship at an IPR firm in Delhi and then DSK Legal, Mumbai. During my first internship at DSK Legal, I got a call back for a second internship. As luck would have it, I was the only intern in the team at the time, and therefore I got some great work both in terms of quality and quantity. I was also fortunate to have very supportive seniors who were there to guide me through every step of the way. At the end of my final year, I was offered the position of an Associate. The idea on internships was that you should try and get a variety of internships so that you can gather different experiences and choose what fields of law really interest you. Practical knowledge on a subject is important when making this decision.

How would you describe the period from being a graduate to starting as a corporate lawyer?

Fortunately, for me, since I had already had two stints of internship at DSK Legal before joining them as an associate, I did not face many challenges in the transition process. Additionally, I joined work only a few days after my final semester exams so the process was very quick for me and before I knew it, I was already on the job doing my first corporate transaction. While I do not believe that it should happen to everyone the way it happened in my case, it is very important for both the lawyer and the firm, that the prospective joinees intern in the field of their choice of law and acquire practical knowledge before they start work as an associate.

How would you describe a day in the office of a Manager at a reputed firm like DSK Legal?

After having spent seven years in the profession, there vests a reasonable amount of responsibility and supervision on my shoulders. However, at DSK Legal, we are encouraged to take on a lot more at this stage. While this role encompasses supervision and review of the work done by your junior colleagues, taking responsibility and ownership of the entire collective assignment, while ensuring an effective execution and implementation of the task assigned is essential. The task need not be matter specific at all times. At this stage, it is also about what it is that you bring to the table which takes you, at a personal level and the firm at a larger level, ahead. Being in the service industry, client acceptability is critical for us. Besides this, you also have the duty to mentor your juniors and participate in client strategy discussions.

Could you share some advice for the interns at DSK Legal?

While it is not fair to expect an intern to know the practical aspects of law, it is expected that they know the basic legal concepts. For any person, willingness to happily learn should be the most important thing under any circumstance. It is one of the most important driving factors which motivates you to enrich yourself. One should also be sincere towards their work, being responsible is an essential attribute for any professional. Also, one must respect the values any organisation is built with.

Do you have any causes which you strongly feel for?

I feel very strongly for two things, people who are less fortunate and people who do not have the means to stand up for themselves. I feel I have been fortunate and it is my duty as a fellow being to help such persons and contribute in bringing change however small it may be.

What do you do when you’re not working?

Like I said before and at the cost of sounding repetitive, I love to travel. A new place, an unfamiliar environment, an unexplored culture brings out a different spark in you. You learn how to handle a situation, how to conduct yourself according to the situation, how to be with people.

Any parting words of wisdom for our readers?

Just work hard, be sincere, always put your best into whatever you do and be open to learning and never give up. And job is a means to an end not an end itself. So, it is equally important to enjoy life, make memories which will last a lifetime. It is okay to have your share of sorrows and failures as for every experience make you the person that you are.

Sandeep Parekh graduated in law from Delhi University in 1995. He then went on to pursue his Masters in Securities and Financial Regulation in 1997. Since then, he has served as International Associate at Wilmer, Cutler & Pickering, Associate Advocate at Wadia Ghandy & Co., Partner, Securities and Financial Practice Group at P.H. Parekh & Co., and Executive Director at SEBI. He is also visiting faculty at IIM-A. He is currently Founder cum Managing Partner at Finsec Law Advisors.

In this interview we speak to him about:

• Starting his own firm
• His experience in Securities Law
• His passion for teaching

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

I would introduce myself as a securities lawyer who specialised early in my life. My advice to students has always been to focus on education and build a strong foundation, rather than building on experience early in life. You literally have a lifetime to build on experience. But there is limited time for foundational study and really deep research. As a professional there is little time available for doing either and the foundation of basic legal building blocks and deeper research stay with you for a lifetime. Finally, the early work helps in daily work. If one were to tell a client that you don’t know what a contingent contract is, but will look it up, you are unlikely to win the client’s confidence. The advice is even more important for people who turn specialists, as later exposure to constitutional, contract, transfer of property and other basic laws becomes limited.

Is there any specific anecdote that means a lot to you, which you would like to share with our readers?

My law school days in DU were intense. I was working nearly full time with Mr. Harish Salve from the day I joined law school. I would start the day early, to be in time for a little research before the first conference would start at 8 AM. I am certain I was of little or no use to Mr. Salve for a long period of time, but I learned a lot reading cases for Monday and Friday SLP days at the Supreme Court. There was a lot of fundamental research we did at his chambers and we relied on the best books on the subject. This ensured that even in law school I always relied on quality primary, secondary and tertiary sources of information, rather than the shortcuts available to pass exams. Our law school, popularly known as LC-II was an evening course of Delhi University, though as a full time course it had the same contact hours as the day course and classes were taken seriously by both faculty and students. What was unusual was the class age. It was close to 40. Many mid to senior level bureaucrats and police officers were part of the class.

A fun anecdote relates to a case where Mr. Salve had a prior commitment, but another case went on longer than expected. The briefing lawyer was not ready with the matter as his junior who was familiar with the matter was also stuck in another court. As it happened, I had made detailed notes on the content and research and I fed the advocate the argument virtually line by line. It was intimidating as I was not supposed to sit on the front seats with my black student tie, rather than a gown and a band. But the high was that we won that trademark case and the ruling was even covered in the papers a few days later.

What were the activities, academic or otherwise, that you undertook in your law school days which in your opinion have shaped you and your career?

The nature of the school meant that the only other activity I did outside of coursework, which I attended to religiously, was moot courts. I was competent primarily because I was doing this in real life ten hours a day seven days a week. Researching, drafting and of course observing the best counsels of the country argue before the highest court of India. I would sometimes spend a few hours on weekends rock climbing before or after work at an Indian Mountaineering Foundation site in Dhaula Kuan, close to Mr. Salve’s office.

Who was your mentor, or main source of inspiration who motivated you all along the way?

I have had three mentors, one I described above, Mr. Salve. The other was Mr. Arthur Mathews, who was a partner at Wilmer, Cutler and Pickering and taught me a course at Georgetown law. He was also responsible for getting me a position at his firm as an international attorney and then even though I didn’t work with him at Wilmer, he treated me as family and took me out for a baseball game with his family. The last was of course Mr. Damodaran of SEBI, who took me in at a senior position at SEBI at a young age and mentored me. He continues to be a source of support to me and is a great sounding board as well. I must also mention my partner at Wilmer, Brandon Becker, who was a former director at the SEC and a force to reckon with in market regulations. My partner at Wadia Ghandy, Nihar Mody, was also a great person to learn from.

Would you say higher studies are relevant for a career in law?

This is a tricky question and I assume the answer would differ from person to person. The main reason for me undertaking this particular course was the specialised learning I would get. My LL.M. was in securities and financial regulations and I practically didn’t attend any non-securities course. The other major reason why people undertake an LL.M. is job opportunities. This is true both in India and abroad. So I would say, to each his own, if a degree opens up educational avenues not otherwise available, one should pursue higher studies. Similarly, if a degree opens jobs, one should use it to open that market, though both domestically and internationally, it has limited use for that purpose. Often it is both reasons. The advantage of a foreign education is that it opens global doors to both education and to jobs, though is quite expensive by comparison.

What does the CV of a student seeking admission in a premier university offering an LL.M. program have to look like?

I was a part of the admissions committee at Georgetown Law and thus got substantial exposure to this, having reviewed hundreds of applications. The criteria run into objective and subjective ones. In the objective ones are grades, publications and any public positions held at the college or law college. Subjective ones are those which can easily be padded and inflated and are therefore of a lesser value in an international evaluator’s mind. But a skilled student would back it up with evidence and make this also a strong suite. Say a passion for right to information backed by papers and actual usage for public good would help a student’s cause immensely. Usually some inflation of your background is tolerated, but lying is not. To say you topped the university when you did not, would pollute the believability of the rest of your application.

An LL.M. abroad would be best after at least a year or two of practice because many areas of procedure and evidence which are best understood in court or in corporate practice make LL.M. courses easier to grasp. Experience is also very useful in case you choose to appear for the New York or California bars.

What was the experience of working with Mr. Harish Salve like?

I think Harish Salve is just an incredible force of nature in terms of intellectual firepower. His brilliance is matched by his hard work, I recall he would wake up around 5  5:30 AM and read and research thoroughly before a conference. As a result many of his conferences lasted seconds rather than minutes or hours. He urged me to read Seervai and Palkhivala from cover to cover and often course corrected me when I went off course.

Can you tell us about your tryst with academia?

I have been teaching at IIM-A for the past sixteen years as a visiting faculty and have tremendously enjoyed teaching all these years. After SEBI, I had joined as a full time faculty because of my rather sensitive job at SEBI as head of legal affairs and enforcement. The chance of conflict was very high if I had started practicing immediately after my regulatory role and there was also a chance of inadvertent conflict since my signature would be on thousands of files. At IIM-A however, I did many interesting consulting tasks like being a plaintiff’s lawyer at New York courts in the infamous Satyam matter.

What or who motivated you to take the leap of faith and start Finsec Law Advisors?

There seemed few good options in terms of a professional set up in top Indian law firms with the legacy issues which we are all aware of. Instead of joining a mid-tier firm, I thought of starting a small, high quality top tier law firm. We continue to have a quality focus and have no growth plans or plans to diversify into other areas. We dominate the securities regulatory domain and would like to believe we have no competitors in the field in which we operate. We believe in spending a quarter of our time on public policy and intellectual pursuits. Our firm has three books to its credit in the past few years, we run newsletters, monthly dialogue series, an annual roundtable, we routinely respond to regulatory comment papers. Our advice has been sought formally and informally by several regulators and parliamentary committees. I sit on most industry committees relating to financial markets viz. CII, Ficci, Assocham BCCI, IMC etc. These pursuits make our task interesting and worthwhile. Work without a purpose becomes uninteresting after a few years. What we don’t do is lobbying for clients and what we respond to is based on our consistent belief in a better regulatory environment for the country. There is indeed substantial regulatory cholesterol which needs to be reduced. Knowing it exists is the first step in addressing it.

Where do you see yourself ten years from now?

We don’t have growth targets, we do expect to maintain the same quality as we currently have. We would like to expand into other areas of financial regulatory work where we currently don’t operate. However, we never expect to become a full service law firm as we would rather be the best in what we do instead of being above average in many areas. Interestingly, we are referred a large part of our work from other law firms and also the big four accounting firms.

What is your message to our readers?

Focus on your education, build your foundation, rely on the best commentary on any subject (including my book!) and read it cover to cover where foundational. You will never have that luxury when you start practicing. Lot of your success will be a result of pure luck, of standing at the right place at the right time. But if you aren’t prepared when the good wind blows, you can’t blame ill luck later. So prepare to let the wind push your back and stand in ready position on the concourse. Work hard in the first two decades of your career and take a path less beaten, even if it is not the most lucrative financially. If work is work, then you will not last long in your current job. Make it fun, fulfilling and bring a purpose to improve the world in whatever small way possible.

Gaurav Shukla graduated from Nagpur University in 2007. After successful stints at Pancrest Pvt. Ltd., Pangea 3, and Exceed Entertainment Pvt. Ltd., he has started independent practice, where his role entails handling both non-litigation and litigation work assignments for various clients in the field of Entertainment, Media and Sports Industry.

In this interview we speak to him about:

• Sports, Media and Entertainment Law
• Being in-house counsel
• Starting independent practice

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

I would like to introduce myself as a person who at a very young age realised that it is one’s own struggle to deal with everyday challenges, and no matter who stands with you or comes forward to support, you have to overcome these challenges on your own. Therefore, I am a firm believer of the famous quote from the book The Alchemist, “A man is the creator of its own fate”. I have chosen law as my profession with the sheer will and determination to make my name in this profession and endeavour everyday to thrive and excel by taking a positive stride every morning.
I have worked with various corporates as their in-house counsel. My approach has always been very unconventional in performing all my assignments and pursuing the opportunities that come my way or those that I manage to create for myself.

Tell us a little about your days in law school.

I graduated from DACN Law College affiliated with Nagpur University. Though I wanted to study in a law school, I failed to appear for a law school entrance. I was also very sceptical about getting through, being an average student throughout my matriculation. I remember one incident which changed my life. I was not good in spoken or written English during the initial days of law college and I misspelled a very simple word for which my entire friend circle mocked me which was embarrassing for me considering the background I come from.

What were the activities, academic or otherwise, that you undertook in your law school days which in your opinion have shaped you and your career?

I am an enthusiastic and an energetic youth but with the kind of college that I come from there was not much scope to engage in many activities. Therefore I thought of becoming independent and started working in the BPO industry in Nagpur speaking to American and English people on sales calls.  When my friends were busy running pillar to post in the court premises working with their seniors, I was developing a skill to convince a complete stranger sitting thousand miles away to buy a product and share their financial and personal details which I believe is a very difficult job. I am not undermining the importance of internships or visitations to court hearings, I am putting across a different approach which not only improved my communication/oratory skills but is also a prerequisite to excel in the legal profession. I was also developing my convincing skills which we need to possess in order to argue matters efficiently. We as individuals have to understand our shortcomings and work towards improving them conventionally or unconventionally.

How important is mooting in the life of a law student? 

Mooting has now become an integral part of the curriculum. Mooting is a very important aspect in developing and shaping your advocacy skills. It gives you a platform to undergo a mock experience of how you need to conduct and appear before the real courts. You develop the art of interpretation and how to put forth an argument. I also undertook the moot court competitions and approached it very seriously keeping in mind the benefits and fruits it will yield in longer run. Not choosing moot court competition is one’s own choice or preference, however we get exposure of competing with students in intra college and national moots and getting the opportunity to witness others is an experience in itself, it gives you an edge over others.

How important are grades, in your opinion? 

I have graduated from a law college which is not even known to the legal fraternity, but with decent grades. Campus placement or pre-placement offers are not even a probability that I could ever come across or dream off. Whatever position I have attained in my career is purely and solely out of my own efforts and perseverance.

I do agree that grades are important and we cannot shy away from the fact that your first impression is cast on the basis of your grades before the interviewer or for even getting a chance to get a call from a reputed employer. However, grades are not everything. One may achieve good marks by mugging up the entire book without actually understanding the essence and application of the law. One has to have a very strong base and legal acumen in order to excel at the highest level. Competition is cut throat and with new technologies and modules being introduced in the market, the day is not far when the first level of work shall be done with the help of these tools.  In order to safeguard and strengthen one’s position and demand in the market, one has to have a clear understanding about interpretation and applicability of the law and to the best of the client’s advantage in order to secure the desired results. These days landing up in jobs is not totally dependent on your GPAs. As I mentioned earlier good GPAs may get you a chance to appear for an interview, however your knowledge and interpretation and  application skills along with correct approach shall sail you through the hiring process. I had the opportunity to come across many candidatures, and to be honest not even once have I looked at the table which contains their academic credentials. For me, a person’s other curricular initiatives (internships) and the exposure of different kinds of assignments is what I am most interested in. If a student having excellent GPA cannot answer a simple questions related to contract law or CPC or for that matter any other law, what is the use of that GPA? My humble advice is to understand and have correct interpretation of law as it is purely based on logic. What is not logical can never be upheld in any court of law barring few blunders which we come across.

Who was your mentor, or main source of inspiration who motivated you all along the way?

My one and only mentor is my father Mr. Girish Shukla who is also a senior advocate  having experience of almost four decades in the legal profession  as a Judge and as an Advocate. He is a practising counsel in the High Court, Mumbai and other fora. He has dealt with varied subject matters handling a plethora of cases throughout his career. My strength, professional ethics, inspiration, acumen, conduct and every aspect of my being is my father’s gift to me. Also my mother has played a very important role in my life, has supported and motivated me to the extent which I cannot be expressed.

What are your areas of specialisation in law?

I wouldn’t project myself to be a specialist in any area of law. However, with utmost humility, I can say that I have gathered knowledge in the field of Entertainment, Media and Sports and deal with clients on subjects like Intellectual Property Rights, Sports Law, Corporate Laws and litigation matters. I have been working in the entertainment, media and sports industry for most part of my legal career and deal with all the relevant laws and related work assignments on a day to day basis. I always had the option of joining my father in his practice and live a smooth and comfortable life. But that is not who I am. I always like to challenge myself and endeavour to achieve things on my own. I always believed that if you have a family backing in the profession that you are pursuing, that option or working with them is always open for you. However, I believed and followed the principles that will enable me to stand out and make my own name. In the legal profession, the initial years of practice are full of struggle and if you join your family in litigation practice then you are more of a liability than an asset. I therefore decided while I was in my final year that I shall pursue my career in the corporate department/non litigation work profiles wherein I get paid from day one and therefore get to avoid financial crunch. I did not have the privilege to land a job in a law firm not being a student from a law school.

Students have to take into account two main factors/aspects vis-à-vis their financial condition/backing and their interest/strength in legal field while deciding their future steps. If they are financially sound then they can either take up independent litigation (no guarantee of fees) during initial days or work with a senior advocate for less salary. If they are not financially sound, then they need to secure a job in a law firm or in corporates/companies as in-house counsels. Second aspect is indirectly related to the first one and if they have the financial support then they can experiment to work in fields they have inclination towards and if it doesn’t work then may be try something else. It is ultimately a person’s own evaluation as to what suits their situation and what they desire/can sustain.

How were the first few years after your graduation?

I was the first person from my batch and entire college to secure a job in Mindcrest India Pvt. Ltd. in Pune. I had appeared for my interview and test even before my final semester exams and was offered a job. You cannot imagine how happy I was to get a job before graduating back in those days when most of my friends and other fellow students had no idea what they will do after the exams. Mindcrest has been one of the best working experiences I ever had. Not because it was my first job, but the culture of Mindcrest had a blend of work and sports, as they strongly believed in ‘all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy’. During my stint with Mindcrest, I have played various corporate tournaments and represented Mindcrest in basketball, badminton, cricket, football, snooker and other sports. I have been a sportsman throughout my childhood and being a state player in basketball and badminton, one cannot ask for more in their work life if you get to participate and represent in different sports, the organisation one is working for. Special mention to Mr. Ameet Gokhale (erstwhile India head) and the founder Mr. Ganesh Natarajan for being sports enthusiasts and ardent supporters of all Mindcrest players/employees. After Mindcrest I have worked with Pangea 3 in Mumbai and then in the sports and entertainment sector. Law college made us realise one fact that we will have to make our own fortune as college did not have the facility or infrastructure to enable us to seek pre placement offers.

What is it about the corporate sector that kept you in this field and never let you leave for firm practice until recently?

(Gaurav has worked with several corporate giants such as Mindcrest India Pvt. Ltd., Thomson Reuters, IMG Reliance Limited as well as Exceed Entertainment Pvt. Ltd., and as Senior Manager in the Legal Department at Bajaj Telefilms Ltd. )

As I mentioned earlier corporate sector job is more stable financially and also provides opportunity for variety of work. You get to learn the nuances of the respective business carried out by such corporates and also get exposure to litigation and compliance related aspects which enhance your repertoire as a professional. I have worked with corporates for ten years and normally when people try to stabilise their life and try to strike a balance in terms of professional work and personal life, I have again deviated from such standard practice and have now decided to work independently with diverse clientele in distinct industries. Throughout my career, I have worked on Indian Super League (ISL), Indian School College Basketball League (ISBL), Aircel Chennai Open (Tennis), Lakme Fashion Week, Myntra Fashion Weekend, whilst working with IMG. Working on Indian Super League was a very unique experience as I had the opportunity to work with Player Auctions, Regulatory Commission Works, Player Agreements (Both Domestic and International), Sponsor Agreements, Franchise Agreements, Stadium Agreements and all other contracts executed for the League. With Balaji Telefilms Group, I had the opportunity to work and engage myself and supervise team members working on different kinds of Agreements and other litigation work for Television Industry, Films and Digital Media. Broadcasting Deals, commissioning Agreements, Film and television Production and Channel Agreements, Artist, underlying work contributors etc.

I have recently with  my father’s guidance and mentoring ventured into independent work and started our full service law firm under the name of MGS Advocates. Currently we are catering to clients in Mumbai in various fora for litigation matters and also undertaking mandates for non-litigation work in the field of Entertainment, Media, Sports and Corporate Sector. We have associate partners in all major cities in India with whom we work on regular basis. We are currently operating from three offices located in Mumbai and we have plans to expand our facilities and offices in all major cities of the country.

How was your experience working as a junior lawyer with a Senior Advocate?

Due to a family emergency I had to leave the job in Pune and relocate to Nagpur to help the family members in dire situation. During this time I practised and assisted my father is all his cases at the High Court and District Court in Nagpur. I gained valuable experience of litigation, working and procedures of the district court, which is the most important to learn for a litigating lawyer.

If given an opportunity, what would you do differently in your career journey up to this point?

If given an opportunity I would go back and study law from a reputed law school in order to seek better opportunities with lesser struggle and commensurate package as per the current market standard. Being from a law college lesser known, I have worked really hard to get where I am and the monetary compensation which is offered to a law school student is something that I could never achieve from the word go, though now I believe, it is at par or even more than the standard packages offered to someone equaling my experience.

My advice to aspiring lawyers is to stick to one organisation/firm for a longer duration at least two to three years during their initial stages after graduation, as stability these days is a major concern and I am saying this out of my own experience. Also, they should analyse and evaluate and think 1000 times before making any harsh decision of either switching their job or going independent. However, once they have made the decision they should never regret and repent the decision as it will affect them even more than the decision itself.

Is there any other suggestion you would like to give to our budding lawyers?

I always had one thing very clear in my mind, that no one was born knowing everything.  Apart from certain personality traits inherited by them from their parents, everything else is and has to be developed on our own. Every person does not have the same grasp, concentration, skill or ability and therefore never ever either compete or compare yourself with others. Winning or losing is not always in your hands, but giving everything to the best of your endeavours is something you should strive for and then stay focused and positive. Have perseverance, be humble, hold on, the initial days are the hardest and do not give up easily. It is your determination and sheer will power that will make you reach places because as often seen, the smart ones are not always the rich ones and the rich ones are not always the smart ones.

Lastly I shall conclude myself with a very famous quote being an ardent fan of the world’s greatest basketball player, Micheal Jordan:

“I’ve failed over and over and over again in my life and that is why I succeed. Obstacles don’t have to stop you. If you run into a wall, don’t turn around and give up. Figure out how to climb it, go through it, or work around it. Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships.”

Krishnayan graduated from National University of Juridical Sciences, Kolkata in 2006. After graduating from the second batch of NUJS, Calcutta, he joined the chambers of Mr. V.R. Reddy, Senior Advocate and former Addl. Solicitor General of India at the Supreme Court of India. Thereafter, after the sudden and untimely demise of his father, he held the reigns of his father’s legal practice – Udayan Sen & Co., when he was 24 years of age. After a couple of years in Calcutta, and about eighteen months in a mid-sized firm at Mumbai, he started Verus in early 2011, along with a few spirited friends.

From humble beginnings in 2011, Verus has grown to a mid-sized firm with five partners advising on both transactions and disputes. Verus was recognized as the Best New Law Firm by IBLJ in 2012, won the Deal of the Year (Disputes) in IBLJ Awards 2015; and has been recommended by IFLR in its Indian Firm Rankings for its banking & capital markets practices. Krish is also the recipient of the NaniPalkhivala Medal (2004) and G. Venkatasubramaniam Gold Medal (2005).

His principal areas of practice include international arbitration, corporate-commercial disputes, litigation advisory and banking litigation. Krish is qualified as an Advocate-on-Record at the Supreme Court of India and has been the Standing/Nominated Counsels for statutory and government undertakings.

In this interview we speak to him about:

• His experience in arbitration
• Starting his own firm
• His plans for the future

What prompted you to think of law as your career?

I actually aspired to be a footballer; I was a decent forward at school-level tournaments. However, I quickly realized that my ambition far exceeded my talent to seriously consider it as a career option. So I went along with what most Bengali middle class families considered safe, and chose science in my senior secondary (Class XI-XII). I was an average student and didn’t have a particular interest or aptitude for Science subjects. In fact, in hindsight, I should have taken Arts. Around that time, my parents who were both lawyers, mentioned that I could consider law as a career option. But what really got me interested in law was when I started going through the law entrance exam books which my father would get from Delhi – I remember there used to be one from Universal’s. The section on logic and analytical reasoning appealed to me – may be because it didn’t involve much preparation, and seemed more of common sense. So I sat for the different law entrance exams and got through NUJS. Looking back, I think one great thing about my dad was that he never imposed himself on me to take up law. Somehow I didn’t feel the pressure of joining the profession, which many with legal backgrounds ordinarily face. My parents were quite happy, maybe more relieved, that I had cracked NUJS. Deep within, I knew I was terribly lucky to have somehow got through a national law school.

What is the importance of a good mentor in the early years of practice

A mentor shapes your character, both as a person and practitioner, and instills certain values, ethics and principles in you which would define you. The most important thing to have happened in my professional life was to have Mr. V.R. Reddy as a senior and mentor. He was a former Addl. Solicitor General of India, Advocate General of Andhra Pradesh and Chairman of Bar Council of India under whose Chairmanship the NLSIU, Bangalore was conceptualized and instituted. Like most juniors I tried picking up some of the skills and tools of my senior by observing him closely, hoping that some of his qualities would somehow rub off on me. He was more in the old-school mould with meticulous preparation and incredible hard-work, always fair to the court and opposing counsel, never misled the court, superb articulation of the main points and keeping his arguments brief and to the point. His attitude toward fees was, “We take fees for our briefs, but not briefs for our fees.” He would keep reminding me of the 5Ps – ‘prior preparation, prevents poor performance.’ But where I felt he was different from others, were his qualities of the heart. If I had to sum up my senior’s qualities in one word, I would say it is compassion. In February 2007, when my father was on his deathbed in a hospital in Calcutta, VRR, who didn’t know my father personally, flew down to Calcutta to see him at the hospital. My father, by then already sinking, softly thanked him for his kindness, to which VRR replied, “Wouldn’t Krish have done the same for me?” VRR’s love and affection towards his juniors was, and is, almost paternal. That’s what a good mentor does. He doesn’t see his junior merely as a resource or an asset in his firm or chamber who is there only to get his work done. He genuinely wishes well for his juniors and maintains the relationship and association long after the juniors have flown out of the nest. I realized that stark difference when I joined a law firm a few years later under a senior partner who was a good lawyer, but all mind. That’s the unfortunate truth at many firms; where juniors are only treated as resources and billing machines.

What drove you to establish your own law firm, Verus?

There were many factors behind starting Verus, but the most important urge was to create something new and fresh. I think many of us were quite disillusioned with some of the big law firms on both external parameters (like client service, partner accessibility, billing patterns, value chain) and internal parameters (like family run management style, treatment of associates& staff, happiness at work, salary structures). We felt an alternate model was not only possible but absolutely imperative. Why couldn’t we live and work in a state of mind which was fun, enjoyable and adventurous? And so we started in early 2011 from a small one-room office at Mumbai. Six years on, while we have grown to larger premises and added both lawyers and offices, it’s still very much a work-in-progress as we continue to experiment with entrepreneurship and delivering alternative service models. Clients have been very kind in taking this journey with us. I must mention here something that I should have said at the very outset, I could have never started Verus without the support of my wife, Atreyee. She was the breadwinner in the family and stood by me like a rock in those difficult years.

The initial challenge in running the partnership was to understand how to do business between friends. But the dust settles after a while, once you understand the different working styles of each partner and learn to give each partner his or her operational space. What is also important is to learn to appreciate each other’s role in a partnership; since partners would ordinarily possess complementary strengths. I was fortunate to have incredibly supportive founding members in Dipankar, Rishad, Charles, Gandhar and the one we lost, Jay. The founding team and a group of passionate lawyers across our four offices form the backbone of the firm. Despite your best efforts, there would be setbacks, and you will need to learn from each of those setbacks, pick up the pieces and move forward.The most important challenge, however, is to ensure that at all times, the soul of the firm remains intact. The form of the firm, as in any other organization, may undergo change, the firm will grow; the leaders in the firm would also change; so may the nature of the work too. But the members of the firm must see to it that the spirit of autonomy, innovation, excellence, togetherness, forthrightness, transparency and joy on which the firm was built, brick-by-brick, always remains alive and unscathed. In the end, it is this soul of the firm that would define who we are.

While hiring lawyers, what kind of skills do you look for in their CV?

Actually, people in the firm often mock me for not looking at the CV at all. But that’s not entirely correct. I do look at the CV cursorily just to get a basic background of the candidate; but then form any impression of the candidate only at the time of the interview. Studying the CV too closely could often cloud your judgment on a candidate. I ordinarily look out for candidates who show some degree of independence and autonomy. I may ask a few legal questions during the interview, but ordinarily I try to assess if the person would be a good fit for Verus and what are the drivers for the candidate to join the firm. There have been times when I have been quite impressed with the lateral thinking of a candidate or his accomplishments in earlier assignments but I thought he or she would not be a good fit. Despite being a product of a national law school, I genuinely feel that law firms give way too much importance on national law school graduates and thereby do a disservice to non-national law school graduates, most of whom just do not get a level-playing field and opportunity to really come into their own.

The Government of India is planning to allow foreign law firms to enter into India. Do you think the Indian law firms will be confronting to fight with the tough competition foreign law firms entering into India?

Entry of foreign law firms will be the great “wolf-wolf“ moment in the legal services space – every Government has given the threat but none have had the heart to execute it. Anyhow, if somehow foreign firms are permitted to eventually enter the Indian market, then my predictions are: (a) Bigger law firms will most likely decide to stay independent and compete with the foreign firms (pretty much like what we have seen in Singapore and Hong Kong), and it will be a battle for survival-of-the -fittest; (b) Mid-sized firms will have to decide whether to merge or enter a JV with the foreign firm; (c) There could be a consolidation of the big Indian law firms where two or three big firms may merge to form a domestic behemoth; (d) Smaller or boutique law firms who do not wish to merge with bigger firms will most likely carve out niche practice areas like IP, competition, tax; (e) Litigation firms would be mostly insulated from the entry of foreign law firms, except for those firms who are involved in only high-ticket litigation.  

It is a general assumption that the fresher graduates have to struggle a lot during the initial years. What was your experience?

I am afraid this is true. A beginner will basically need four things, which generally come in the following order: legal curiosity, hard work, legal intuition/temperament and some luck. Litigators need an additional trait, patience. A lawyer is like a skilled mechanic, he requires honing certain specific skill sets with a certain mindset. Whether you are a corporate lawyer or a litigator, both streams require learning certain fundamental skills which in legal parlance, we call learning the ropes of law. Struggle entails three things: first, learning the technical skills – researching, comprehending and analysing, strategizing, articulating, drafting, presenting, advocacy or negotiation skills etc; second, learning the soft interpersonal skills – interacting with clients, colleagues, understanding seniors, learning to work in a team, understanding and fitting into the work-place; lastly, and this is usually the tricky part, is to pick up the ethical principles which would guide the way you conduct yourself in the profession, the moral and ethical code you would like to follow. You pick this up from observing simple things like how conflicts and confidentiality are dealt with within the firm or chamber, how billing is done within the firm, whether proper risk disclosures are made to the client, whether your senior deliberately misleads the court or is unfair to the other side, and whether the firm or chamber indulges in corrupt and questionable practices.

In terms of hard work, I used to put in about sixteen to eighteen hours a day, sometime more, in my first seven years, as did my peers. In my first five years, I had taken only two holidays, the first of which was for my honeymoon. While a lot of law is in the detail, what is important in the foundation years is, what I would call, to get a sense of the law. It’s a bit abstract to explain, but in essence you develop a sense of fairness and broadly develop a sense of what the law should be.

What do you find admirable in present generation of lawyers compared to that of your generation?

I think the present generation are much bolder and greater risk-takers. They tend to prefer the experience and are not solely driven by the money. My sense is that the next wave of innovation in legal services – the “Uber”moment –will come from the present and next generations.

Where do you see yourself five years from now?

You know I would earlier make these projections for myself – five years, ten years. My original goal, when I graduated from law school, was to become a senior counsel by my late thirties. But with time, I have realized that life passes us by while we make grand plans for our future. Therefore, best is to live at the present. Personally, in five years, I do not foresee myself involved in any leadership or management role at Verus – which would pass on to the next generations. I would prefer acting on select matters and like to explore some of my other interests like reading, travelling and writing. Verus is also preparing for a major push on the artificial intelligence and technology front which could be quite disruptive in the legal services space. It’s still too early to speak more on it, but once we are through with the pilot phase, maybe we could share more insights on that.

What would be your parting message to our readers?

I would like to say two things: First, do not take your life in law too seriously people get so consumed in the rat race stressing on partner promotions, senior advocate designations, office politics etc., that they forget that life is quietly passing them by. Explore other things like books, sports, travel, gardening, enjoy things that make you happy like music, teaching, painting & crafts, gardening, cooking or some voluntary work; even simpler things like spending time with your kids, friends, family and pets which would broaden your worldview. I personally find reading and travel quite enriching and therapeutic. Secondly, it is my appeal to students and especially to law schools, please see that the students get a holistic exposure on the true potential of law. Most law schools today focus in making corporate legal robots. There is very little imagination. The search for the answer to the question, “why become a lawyer?” should take students to places where they observe from close quarters, the challenges that law is seeking to address, be it on global climate change, human rights violations in Africa, refugee problems of Europe, studying the civil rights movements or the trials of war crimes. Law students need to be sensitized to these topics, not merely in class rooms, but also by giving them real first-hand field experiences to enable them to take an informed choice on what kind of lawyer they wish to become in life. Unfortunately, I find that vital education, exposure and sensitization completely missing which is a great disservice and denial to the students. First and second year law students are so stressed on whether they will get an internship in BigLaw or not. Even simple gestures like doing a case study on a movie – like To Kill a Mocking Bird, The Bang Bang Club, A Few Good Men, Before the Flood, The Verdict, The Pianist –would evoke spontaneous discussion and debate amongst young minds and some of them may choose an alternative career path in law. But most law schools have developed a tunnel vision where the entire focus is in reporting how many PROs the graduating batch has received, what starting salaries their students have secured, how many law firms or corporates have come to their campus on Day Zero. I am a product of such a law school and am now also one of those recruiters, but my appeal to law students and law schools alike is to please explore all opportunities that law, as a discipline, has to offer – which goes much beyond a commercial law firm or a Supreme Court lawyer’s chamber – and only thereafter take an informed decision as to what would be most fulfilling and satisfying for you personally and professionally.

Adab graduated from Symbiosis Law School, Pune in 2009. During his graduation he also completed the Company Secretary Course and diplomas such as Diploma in International Business Laws and Corporate Laws, Advanced Diploma in Taxation laws, Diploma in Cyber Law, Diploma in Intellectual Property Law. Subsequently, he completed his LLM in Energy Laws from UPES in 2015. Immediately after graduating, he started working with Paras Kuhad and Associates at its Delhi office, followed by a brief stint at DSK Legal at its Delhi office. In December 2011, he set up his law firm, Adab Singh Kapoor and Associates. 

In this interview we speak to him about:

• His time at Symbiosis
• Setting up his own firm
• Pursuing a Ph.D

When did you decide to take up law as your profession? 

I was a science student and was contemplating a career in engineering, as was the sentiment amongst most of my batch mates then in St. Patrick’s School, Asansol, West Bengal. However, after class 12, I did not see myself pursuing further studies in Engineering. It was at that time when I figured that I should pursue a career which resonated with my strengths and interests. I was into public speaking and enjoyed it and felt that I should pursue a career which required public speaking and good communication skills. It was at this point that a career in law started making sense and I decided to pursue it.

Tell us a bit about your time as an undergraduate student at Symbiosis International University.

The five years were the most formative years of my life. Not only were we trained academically but were also given opportunities to take several initiatives. As such it contributed to our all around development and has stood me in good stead. Certain bold and brave decisions taken early in my professional career may have been more difficult to take had it not been for the initiatives which were taken in Symbiosis and which were duly encouraged by the management. Symbhav ‘09 was one of them! Organizing the fest on a magnified scale, that too for the first time, presented its own set of challenges. It was our staunch belief in the cause that made the fest a success and now a legacy! The cardinal lessons that I learnt on entrepreneurship, teamwork as well as marketing played their part when I started my own practice.

I was also fortunate to have stayed at the Symbiosis International Hostel for five years wherein I had the opportunity to interact with several international students and learn about their culture and backgrounds. Also, staying on campus gave me the opportunity to witness several programs held at the Vishwabhavan Auditorium, thereby further enhancing my learning experience.

What are the activities that you took up in law school?

I was fortunate to be involved in several extra curricular and co-curricular activities in Law School. I deeply value the trust reposed in me by Dr. Shashikala Gurpur (Principal), Dr C J Rawandale (Vice Principal) and the faculty of Symbiosis Law School, Pune and for their constant support and guidance. I was the First President of the Student Council in 2009, Convenor of the first edition of Symbhav, 2009, which, was the first cultural-cum-sports fest of Symbiosis Law School, Pune and which is continuing till date. Besides, I was the founding member of the Tech Legal Cell as well as the Sports Committee of the Law School. I also initiated the Make a Difference (MAD) project, under the aegis of the Human Rights Cell, at Law School, which was an initiative to teach under-privileged children.

At Law School, I always focused on maximizing my time by ensuring that I remain productive. With respect to balancing academics and the different co-curricular activities, my approach had always been to direct my energy into doing what I was doing with whole-hearted devotion and dedication. If I was keen to participate in an extra-curricular or a co-curricular activity, then with single-minded focus I worked towards doing it well. A few weeks before the examinations, the focus shifted to studies. Over the years, I have realized the importance of having a schedule and trying to stick to the schedule, whether daily or weekly. That way, one can lead a more balanced and fulfilling life.

What were you areas of interest during your legal education? 

At law school, I was always open to explore different areas of legal practice. That is one of the reasons I pursued courses and diplomas in different areas. I believe that one should have a varied skill-set and therefore ought not specialize too early.

I continue to have interest in varied fields of practice and apart from running a full-service law firm, I am also continuing with my academic pursuits.   

What are the causes you feel strongly about? 

Women empowerment is a cause I am passionate about. I have worked for this cause in association with various NGOs both in India and abroad. Also, I used to offer weekly legal counselling and awareness sessions to the marginalized women on issues of domestic violence. I am also founder of a trust by the name Punyakarta that inter alia addresses the cause of women empowerment.

Could you tell us about the internships you took up, and what you learnt from those experiences?

Internships are an opportunity to observe real-life practitioners in action and gain an insight into competitive and unpredictable world that is not as forgiving as the professors in law-school. My internships were diverse. I would attribute significant elements of my assimilated courtroom craft to the mentorship that I received from Senior Adv. Mr. Arun Jaitley, Senior Adv. Mr. Ashok De and Adv. Mr. Tapan Chatterjee. I also assimilated assorted legal acumen due to my internships at Amarchand Mangaldas, AZB & Partners. My internship with Hon’ble Mr. Justice Pradeep Nandrajog, was a very enriching experience as well.

From a law student to a lawyer, how will you describe the transition?

​My transition from a law student to a lawyer is analogous to the metamorphosis of a caterpillar into a butterfly! In hindsight, I realize that participating in varied set of activities at law-school such as mooting, debating apart from actuating societies such as Tech Legal Cell infused the necessary practical skills, which were required to sustain myself at the time when I was stepping into the profession.

Tell us about your early professional experiences at Paras Kuhad & Associates, Advocates.

My stint with Paras Kuhad & Associates will always remain special, as it was my first job. I was selected through the campus recruitment process during my final year at Law School. I would like to reiterate the fact that no matter how prepared you think you are for the legal profession, and as clichéd as it might sound, reality hits you only when you actually start working. Remarkably, at Paras Kuhad, I was afforded the opportunity to argue even in the Supreme Court, which is uncommon for someone who is new to the practice. Apart from instilling tremendous confidence in me, this further fortified my conviction that I was meant for litigation.

What motivated you to quit your job at Paras Kuhad & Associates, Advocates to take up a position with DSK Legal? 

I had a short stint with DSK Legal where I was given an opportunity to work upon regulatory matters. Working at DSK Legal made me realize the importance of Energy laws as an upcoming field, after which I decided to pursue an LLM in Energy Laws from UPES, Dehradun.

What tips would you give students and young lawyers who are inclined to research and academic writing?

I think that it is imperative for any researcher to develop his own perspective on concurrent and pervasive legal issues as well as the courage to bring into light his own independent thought process through his articles. Essentially, law students should try to find existing gaps in the academic sphere and try to fill those gaps as opposed to rehashing what is already available.

What are the challenges and learning opportunities that you were faced with while starting your independent practice in 2011?

The real challenge for me, after starting my individual practice lied in multi-tasking. There lies a certain level of formidability in delivering quality work while you are balancing the entrepreneurial aspects of the job. However, if you are determined to be a little different from the established firms out there, you tend to thrive in the challenge. Additionally, finding the right people is also a quandary, which vexed me during my initial phase of my independent practice. Having said that I believe that if one keeps a professional approach and is determined to make it somewhere, these hurdles can easily be crossed.

Can you please share with the readers your work profile so far? 

Firm administration, Personnel Management, Business Development, apart from the work itself are some of the regular chores that one has to go through. I also believe that one should be nimble-fingered while following the whole process of assigning and delegating tasks to the right people. Other than developing my own practice, it is also important for me to ensure that there is holistic development of all the firm members. I try to work from the perspective that everyone evolves into a better professional.

What motivates you to continue your formal learning, how do you make time for it given your busy schedule?

(Adab has pursued an LLM in Energy Laws and is presently pursuing a PhD in Legal Studies.)

Lawyers never stop learning! As banal as that it may sound, it holds true. I still consider myself to be a learner of law and in my view the whole process of formal learning ensures that my perspective is broadened.

On what parameters do you choose the cases you work on? 

Initially, I accepted whatever work came to me. Subsequently I focused more into dispute resolution. In my opinion, when starting up, one should not be too selective in choosing the work and should see to it that he/she is able to obtain as well as work upon a variety of client deliverables.

Did you have a mentor or guide during the formative years of your career?

The significance of mentorship cannot be undermined in our profession and I believe that every young law student/ lawyer should make sincere efforts to foster a relationship with the right kind of people in the legal industry.

I would always be grateful to the mentorship that I received from Senior Adv. Mr. C.M Lall. It is his ability to maintain a healthy work-life balance is what amazed me the most. In addition to being adroit at courtroom craft, he is also an excellent family person.

What books, judgments that you have read would you say have played an integral role in shaping your legal philosophy?

 I was greatly inspired by movies such as A Few Good Men and Chariots of Fire. I still remember the quote from the movie Chariots of Fire; “I believe God made me for a purpose, but he also made me fast. And when I run I feel his pleasure.” This quote is significant because it cleared my head that I should pursue a career in litigation.

What advice would you like to give our readers, who are mostly law students and young lawyers?

Do not join the bandwagon. Do what you believe in. Through the profession also devote time to serve the society and humanity. 

Rohini Singh Sisodia graduated from ILS Law College, Pune, batch of 2008. After a succesful stint at Amarchand Mangaldas & Suresh A. Shroff & Co., (as an Associate from 2008 and as a Senior Associate from March 2012 onwards) in the dispute resolution department, she went on to pursue her Masters at King’s College London where she completed LLM in International Business Laws with merit. Rohini is currently working as a Senior Legal Advisor with the International Investment Agreement Division, Department of Economic Affairs, Ministry of Finance, Government of India, New Delhi where she is involved in treaty negotiations between India and many other countries, investment treaty disputes, along with the related policy work on national, international and other imminent legal issues involving trade, investment and public international law issues. Rohini has also had the unique opportunity to represent India in investment and trade negotiations and had numerous interactions with well-experienced teams of diplomats and government officials.

In this interview we speak to her about:

• Pursuing an LLM in London
• Her experience in Dispute Resolution
• Being Senior Legal Advisor at the Ministry of Finance

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

I am a dispute resolution lawyer, pursuing a niche area of law (particularly for India) i.e. international investment law and arbitration, which involves international investment agreements (bilateral and multilateral), the combination of public international law and public policy issues, and investment treaty arbitrations. I am also stronger believer in the fact that there is no age for learning, identifying and pursuing what you love doing.

Why did you choose to pursue a degree in law, amidst the many options that you had after school?

I never intended to practice law. In fact, I am the only lawyer in my family. Studying law was only a medium to get into Civil Services as generally law subjects are likely to enhance chances of getting through. However, those five years at law school changed my mind. Law turned out to be so exciting and with all the madness in law school in terms of debates, moots, competitions, research, internships, I felt like giving it a shot and after that, I never felt like turning back. It’s extremely important to love your profession and what you wake up to every day. Today, I don’t regret my decision and I am very content with my profession. A career in law is demanding, but working towards resolving a challenging issue is exciting and, gives me immense pleasure. Law teaches one to think independently and optimistically changes the outlook towards dealing with all issues in life.

Could you briefly explain your law school experience at ILS? 

After passing out from an all girls’ boarding school, moving to ILS was like breaking free. Jokes apart, ILS just lets you be. In the beginning I felt directionless as there were just early morning classes and the whole day we were left with nothing to do. And hearing from other friends at law school where the curriculum was much stricter with many other activities, I wondered whether I made the wrong choice. Within a few months I realised I had the free time to do what I want, which other law students may not have so why not utilise it efficaciously. Rather than being told what to do or being forced to do something, we were given the flexibility to decide what we would like to do in our free time. This not only gave us the freedom to decide but also helped us excel in what we did, as we did it out of choice. With time I have also come to realise that it’s not so much about going to the so called top ten ranked colleges, but about moulding yourself to excel even in all circumstances with given opportunities, because then, you are ready to outshine in all facets of life.

What were the activities, academic or otherwise, that you undertook in your law school days which in your opinion have shaped you and your career?

In college, I was an active mooter/debater, organized, participated and secured positions in various national moots and debate competitions. I was also an avid writer and wrote articles for the college magazine, assisted professors in research activities and drafting of regulations and involved in volunteering activities. To make most out of available time, I also completed a diploma course in ‘Alternate Dispute Resolution’ and ‘Mergers and Acquisitions’ from Asian School of Cyber Laws, Pune. I did spend my holidays, like most law students, in taking up internships. Above all, I would say internships in the last two years of law school really helped me get a direction as to what I want to do and where I want to begin my career from.

What kind of internships did you undertake during your student years? 

With no legal background and no one to advise at home, I made sure to undertake internships in different spheres of legal fields, starting with a NGO involving understanding of human rights law to other specialised fields/departments in law firms including general corporate, mergers and acquisitions, competition law, policy & regulatory, dispute resolution including arbitrations etc. I can’t stress enough the significance of doing internships in wide array of laws, if one is not fully sure about a particular specialisation or area of interest from the beginning. Internships give you an opportunity to experiment, analyse and decide which area you are particularly interested in. Lawyers with specific expertise are preferred by clients.

Thus, the strategy is to apply to a wide range of counsels, niche and large law firms, NGOs, in-house opportunities, international schemes and programmes, Indian and internationals courts, and to see where you can get through and try for the other on the next occasion.

At what stage in one’s law school life/career must one pick a specialisation? 

As I mentioned above, one should leave no stone unturned before you discover the area of specialisation and interest particular to you. Although the traditional opinion is to stick to an area of law right from the beginning, and continue with that. But that thinking has to change, else how would you know, which other fields of law could be interesting for you? So, if one has to ultimately reach that field of specialisation one day, then, why not be satisfied that it is the right one.

What are your areas of practice and how did you go about choosing these fields to specialise in?

I took no different approach as I mentioned earlier. After doing various internships, I was most attracted to the dispute resolution field. Unfortunately, to my dislike, when I got a PPO at Amarchand & Mangaldas (now SAM) and was finally placed, I was allocated to the General Corporate team. I continued with the team for six months. Working with the General Corporate team reinforced my decision to move to dispute resolution.  Accordingly, I approached Amarchand’s management for a change of departments. They heard me out and were understanding, and kindly offered me to move to the Dispute Resolution practice. Ever since, my appreciation for the field grew stronger. At Amarchand, I was involved in providing services to a wide range of international and domestic clients, by handling various matters pertaining to strategic advisory on cross-border legal issues, advisory in potential dispute situations, commercial disputes, and corporate fraud investigations. Particularly, I was involved in complex infrastructure and commercial arbitrations (for instance dealing with operation and maintenance contracts, oil exploration and procurement related arrangements and pipeline construction agreements), which provided me with crucial insights into the strategy and management of large and high profile arbitrations.

I left Amarchand to pursue an LLM at King’s College London, where I completed a Master’s in International Business Laws, particularly focusing on subjects relating to international commercial and investment arbitration. At King’s, I developed a particular interest in the area of international investment agreements, including Bilateral Investment Treaties (BITs) and investment treaty disputes, and I decided to delve further into this area of law. While I was at King’s, BITs were a hot topic of discussion in India as the government was involved in the process of reforming the IIA regime. When I returned from my LLM, the International Investment Agreement Section of the Department of Economic Affairs, Ministry of Finance published an opening for lawyers to assist and advise on investment agreement negotiations, disputes and related policy work. I couldn’t have missed this opportunity, and am very glad to be part of the Government during the internal reformation process and further developments.

It did take me sometime to figure out my core area of interest and specialisation. Today, I would call myself a dispute resolution lawyer and my area of interest lies in cross-border arbitrations, investment treaty negotiations and advisory. A combination of Investment & Trade law along with public international law is an upcoming area of law, and I would strongly advise students to consider this.

What made you decide to go for LLM? 

Given that I was handling transnational disputes, which often involve transnational law elements and implications, it encouraged me to pursue a specialized Master’s program at King’s College London. Accordingly, at King’s, I chose to focus on international commercial and investment arbitration and international business litigation, which not only complemented my practical experience so far, but also improved my legal skills in handling international commercial disputes.

I think, pursuing an LLM is about the overall exposure and cross-cultural experience that it offers in bringing together a conglomerate of students from all over the world. Apart from the experience of studying in London, notably the hub of integration and reconciliation of major international issues, at King’s, I also had the privilege of being taught by various internationally known academicians and barristers.

LLM helped me significantly in getting where I am today, but it’s not a given that it would benefit others in the same way. However, no one would deny the overall benefits an LLM offers which are noticeable either in the change in personality, perspective and thinking, or in professional dealings.

Which is the ideal time to do an L.L.M? 

I would definitely recommend an LLM after few years of experience. An LLM is a specialised degree and I see no point pursuing one without fully understanding what you want to do. Some practical exposure is necessary to get better perspective on a specialised practice area. I noticed that students with no practical background found it difficult to cope with the LLM schedule and in deciding on the teaching modules. To be able to appreciate LLM courses, which mostly involve studying of issues in the forefront of global academic debate, to the fullest; it is important to have touched upon transnational transactions and disputes before in your professional experience.

Are there any commendable Indian institutions which you would recommend to a student pursuing an L.L.M, or would you suggest looking only at options abroad?

Frankly, I never devoted sufficient research on opportunities in the Indian institutions, so I wouldn’t be able to comment upon them. The decision also depends on the faculty of an institution and personal financial situation. As I mentioned above, an LLM is about the overall exposure that you get for a year, if finances/funds or scholarships are available, then my suggestion would be to go abroad and get that exposure. It is definitely worth it and a fruitful break from work.

How were the first few years after your graduation? 

(Rohini has previously worked at Amarchand&Mangaldas, one of the most sought after firms by law students, as a senior partner Associate.)

It was long back when I got a PPO from Amarchand& Mangaldas. I think the best way to get in most law firms is give your best during internships. Most students don’t take internships seriously which is a big mistake. Getting through a Tier-I firm is no longer only about being a topper, firms are looking more and more for the all-rounder qualities a student may have, which include personality, outspoken character, participation in extra-curricular activities (including moots, debates, research projectsetc.), general knowledge, self-confidence, dedication and personal motivation.

Tell us about being a Senior Legal Advisor at the Ministry of Finance.

I am currently working as a Senior Legal Advisor with the International Investment Agreement Section, Ministry of Finance, Government of India where I am handling matters relating to International Investment Agreements, particularly involved in bilateral and multilateral investment treaty negotiations between India and many other countries, investment treaty disputes along with the related policy work on imminent national and international legal issues involving trade, investment and public international law. I have had the unique opportunity to represent India in investment and trade negotiations and had numerous interactions with well-experienced teams of diplomats and government officials.

If given an opportunity, what would you do differently in your career journey up to this point? 

I think, being a dispute resolution lawyer, I should have started my career from the lowest level i.e. district courts as I feel that’s the best place to get basic practical training. I should have ideally spent a year with a private practice lawyer. I would have spent less time understanding basics at Amarchand, if I had first-hand experience with courts on a daily basis in terms of research, drafting, arguing and handling clients all in my first year. It’s important for every lawyer to experience that fast paced life in courts at least once, even for corporate lawyers.  

One advice that I have for all law students is just don’t drag on with a field that you are not interested in. I see students, in the mad rush of getting a job and under peer pressure, just take up anything that comes their way, even if it is something they would never like to practice. This is the biggest mistake as that would mislay your interest in law and smother the fire which one has after passing law school. At the most you will not get the best job in the best law firm in the first year of your career. But few years down the lane, you would all be on the same plane, and when you look back, you would at least not regret your decision.

Is there any other suggestion you would like to give to our budding lawyers?

Apart from above, my advice to the budding lawyers would be to put in your best efforts in the first few years as they are the most crucial years of your professional life. Moreover, just don’t worry about not earning enough or not the same as your peers in the first few years. Simply concentrate on your work. To be a successful lawyer, it is also crucial to develop upon your networking skills. Keeping this aside, it is extremely important to keep a work-life balance. Now, this doesn’t sound appropriate from a lawyer’s mouth, but I feel nothing is more important than good health, peaceful and happy personal life. Try and maintain that balance.

Ayush Sharma graduated from NLUJ in 2006. He started his career in 2006 as legal associate in a KPO Quislex Legal Services Pvt Ltd., Hyderabad where  worked on technology agreements.  After a few months in Hyderabad, he moved to IPR Litigation Division of LakshmiKumaran & Sridharan where he worked on Intellectual Property litigation (primarily Patent Litigation) at various High Courts, IPR Tribunals and Supreme Court. He subsequently decided to pursue independent practice. He is currently Advocate-on-Record under the Supreme Court and a registered Patent and Trademark Agent.

In this interview we speak to him about:

• Being a fifth generation lawyer
• His expertise in Trademark and Patent Law
• Starting independent practice

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

I am an independent litigator, patent agent and Advocate on Record. I have been practising law for more than a decade (class of 2006 of NLUJ), specializing in intellectual property and civil litigation.

What motivated you to pursue law?

Though neither of my parents are lawyers, I come from a family of lawyers. Growing up, whenever I visited my grandfather’s and uncle’s chambers, I was extremely fascinated by the law books in there and always wanted to have my own chamber and library of books there. Of course, at the time I did not know how much hard work it would take to reach there.

Give us a brief overview of your life at NLUJ.

Five years at NLUJ were some of the best years of my life. I not only found lifelong friends but also learnt so much from the teachers therein. I would specially want to thank Prof. N. L. Mitra and Mr. Sanjay Pandey for being guiding lights during my time at NLUJ. Everyone in the legal circle knows our first Vice chancellor Prof. N. L. Mitra and what a visionary he is. It was he who saw the future of IPR law in India and wanted NLUJ to produce best patent lawyers in the country. Back in 2004, at NLUJ, we were taught patent drafting by two US Patent Attorneys, which in my opinion was very progressive and way ahead of the time. I still remember discussing Prof. Mitra’s vision (regarding patent law) during internships with students from other law schools and they would not take it, but I am really grateful to him and his vision that if it wasn’t for him I would not have been a patent lawyer.

Well, I cannot really comment on other universities as I have only studied at NLUJ. However, I have worked with some brilliant lawyers who did not go to NLUs. Therefore, I feel its more about a person, their hard work and zeal than the law school they attend. Having said that, the NLU tag really helps in getting better internships and may be the first break in profession but then you are on your own and only your hard work coupled with luck can make you reach where every law students hopes to reach.

What are the subjects that you took particular interest in, during your law school days?

Since I studied science subjects in schools, they drove me towards picking up B.Sc.LLB (Hons) at NLUJ. Once I started studying B.Sc. subjects, I developed interest in patent law because that’s where I could combine science with law. That is what drove me to pursue a in the IPR department of LakshiKumaran & Sridharan and wrote the exam to become a patent agent. Thereafter, I did multiple patent litigations as part of the LKS team which contributed immensely to my learning and gave me confidence and courage to start my independent practice.

In your opinion, what are the law school centric activities that you would recommend as necessary experiences for every law student?

In my opinion, one must participate in all the opportunities that are present at the law school because everything shapes up the professional you finally become. By participation in moot courts and writing papers one can really hone their research skills which come in handy when one starts practicing. Surprisingly, I still remember most of the key legal points I researched for my class projects and otherwise and they come in handy at times to know what direction to take in a matter.

What are your areas of specialisation in law? 

I specialize in patent and trademark litigation, along with that I do fair bit of civil litigation and IPR prosecution. My decision was based on my interest in the niche practice area and having a background in science.

Where does this passion for IP law stem from?

As I mentioned that I was interested in both science and law, and IP law particularly patents was an opportunity to combine both my interests.

What internships would you recommend to a student who also aspires to pursue studies in IPR?

One must aim to intern with a law firm/ individual that does fair bit of both litigation and prosecution work so that one can get a fair idea of the kind of work it will entail if one decides to pick it up as a subject. One should also work with the legal department of a corporate which has a good IP Portfolio because this will give you a perspective about in-house counsels and the business problems they deal with everyday. My internship at Cadila healthcare (Zydus) gave me a wonderful opportunity to understand the problems from the perspective of in-house counsel as what they need from law firms/lawyers. If you are able to think the issues from the perspective of in-house counsel you are well equipped to solve the issues in better way.      

How were the first few years after your graduation? 

It’s a myth that law school teaches you everything about law and legal practice and prepares you for the real world; but it does get you accustomed to the long hours and the hard work. Since day one in law school, I used to work hard for mandatory moot courts for each subject, internal projects and practical exams (science subjects), etc. which made me tough enough to work in any circumstances.  

As soon as I joined LKS, I found myself working in two of the most high profile patent contentious matters, but five years in law scohol had prepared me to to work fourteen to sixteen hours on weekdays and even more on Sundays. All one needs is some Maggie and cheese toast for company. During that time, I learned from my partner Mr. Parthasarthy that you need to work smart and work hard at the same time. Each day at LKS was a great learning experience to observe and learn from my superiors about analysing the problems and conceiving their solutions.

LKS gave me lot of responsibilities and freedom where early in my career I got the opportunities to represent clients in various courts and tribunals ranging from district courts to IPAB, and for this I will always be thankful to Mr. LakshmiKumran and Mr.  Parthasarthy.

Are you from a legal background?

Yes. I am from legal background, actually I am the fifth generation lawyer of my family. I have always heard intriguing stories from my grandfather about his grandfather working in Courts of Bharatpur’s king. I still remember one of the talks with my grandfather about law and society and that day I decided to be a litigator.   

Legal background always plays a crucial role in taking up litigation as a career because you have a fair idea about the difficulties you would encounter in the field and how to be patient because if you are honest and good with your work it will all be worth the initial pain.

What does it take to bag a job at a Tier-I firm like LKS?

All law firms look for legal acumen, quick thinking and problem solving abilities in the candidate because time is money, after all.     

When did you decide to take up independent practice?

As I mentioned earlier, I always wanted to be a litigator, it was just a matter of time when I decided to jump into the uncharted territory of being an independent litigator. When I took the decision I was very well prepared for the same (at least handling clients and matters), the only thing that was of concern was the finances. It was a tough decision going from a well paying law firm job to not knowing how much work will come my way and how much I will get paid, but I was willing to give it a shot. I would like to thank my wife for being there backing me, every step of the way and today I am glad I made that decision.

Give us a peek into what a regular working day looks like for you now.

Being an independent litigator does not give you the comfort of weekends and time. I start my day at 6:30 AM in the morning revising my notes for courts and working on emails from foreign associates as my team does a lot of IPR prosecution for foreign clients. I suggest all the lawyers to start their day early as I believe that one hour of morning work is equivalent to two hours work in the evening. On a normal Court day, I usually work for fourteen to fifteen hours and around nine to ten hours on weekends, which of course depends on the work.   

What is your message to our readers?

Never doubt yourself even for a second and you will be able to achieve what you aimed for and working smart is as important as working hard.

Dr. Kulshresth graduated in law from Chaudhary Charan Singh University, Meerut in 2010. Prior to that, he held a degree in Commerce from Delhi University. He is an IPR consultant and Brand Protection Expert with over twenty years of experience. He also takes up legal cases at all district courts in Delhi and the Delhi High court. He has worked with corporates like Pinkerton Consulting (USA), Suzlon Energy Ltd, Finolex Cables, Finolex Pipes, among others. He is an active contributor to popular law journals in the country. He is currently writing his book on Brand Protection.

In this interview we speak to him about:

• His inclination towards IP Law
• His experience thus far
• His plans for the future

What motivated you to pursue law?

In this modern age countries invade other countries through business. They purchase properties in other countries to establish their offices and channel the money back to themselves. These invaders can be controlled only by law. You cannot attack them in any other way to save yourselves. Even on a personal level if someone is doing something wrong, you have only the law to protect yourself. Wars/fights are now won or lost in courts all over the world. So I decided to join the only real force i.e, law. I think I did take the right path.

What motivated you to choose IPR as your area of expertise?

Many years back I used to run a business promotion company in east Kailash. I got an order from a law firm called Dua Associates.They wanted me to collect evidence for a PIL. I did an excellent job and in the process I realized that lot of duplicates/counterfeits are regularly selling in the market. The only way to stop it was through legal channels. I found it fascinating. That was the time when I decided to take law as my future profession specializing in IPR Brand Protection.

You need to devote time to this niche. If you put your fingers in a lot of pies then you will not be able to do justice. Today we are in the age of super specialization. So, specialise.

What according to you be the way of coming out from the maze of conflict?

Feel the zing while reading different case laws of different fields. You know you’ve found your calling when your bell rings and heart says, “I find this field very interesting!” 

What are the other areas of study which you think a law student wanting to excel as a professional in the field of IP should be proficient in?

Designs Act and GI are the two fields which are starving and crying out for more professionals. Patents is another evergreen field.  

How do you manage to strike a balance between your personal and professional life?

I‘m very passionate about my work. I have seen days when I worked for fourteen hours a day for two weeks straight but I enjoyed it. IPR and law gave me prosperity and name. I had to neglect my family but that’s unavoidable as I was travelling 24 days a month all across India. I learned to live like this and so did my family. You cannot have everything.

What are the primary professional ethics you follow while at work?

No bribes while conducting raids and honest reporting to the client always. Plus, I always prepare my cases very properly.

How does the application of intellectual property differ in the case of litigation or practice at firms?

Not much difference. You need to intern in an IPR only specialist law firm and then grow into a professional by working alongside veteran lawyers. Corporates have very good opportunities but they prefer only those who bring value to the table having worked in a specialist firm for few years. Corporates pay better in case you do not have your private practice. In my last job I was drawing 50 lacs p.a. Then I decided to move on and establish my own practice.  

Where do you see yourself ten years down the line?

I would be teaching Law/IPR in some University and would still take up cases but only those which will interest me. I also hope to write more books.

What would be your message to our readers who are mostly young law students and lawyers?

IPR is a stream which is going to grow in to a torrent. If you find this field interesting then super specialize in it by joining some IPR specialist Firm like Anand and Anand or RK Dewan, etc. I’m still associated with such top law firms as an external adviser.

Poornima Hatti graduated from NLSIU, Bangalore, in 2003. She then went on to pursue her Masters in 2005 from Lonson School of Economics. Her repertoire includes associations with the likes of Amarchand Mangaldas and Herbert Smith. She is currently Partner-Dispute Resolution at Samvad Partners. Poornima also has strong expertise as an anti harassment professional particularly in relation to anti sexual harassment issues at the workplace. She sits as an external independent professional on a number of enquiry committees. She is also a trained mediator. She works with various public interest organisations particularly on matters of urban planning and growth on a pro bono basis.

In this interview we speak to her about:

• Her time at NLSIU
• Her experience at Tier-I firms
• Her pro bono work

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

I would like to believe I am a thinking lawyer who believes that law can bring about change. My practice lies in dispute resolution and in related advisory.

Why did you choose to pursue a degree in law?

My parents are lawyers, so black robes and AIR manuals were not alien to me. I was therefore extremely aware of law as a profession and the wide ranging work that could be done as a lawyer. Looking back, in 1997, a lot of my peers were also very excited about the prospect of learning law at the National Law School (NLSIU). As I learned more about the institution and the people involved in the new “legal experiment”, I was very interested in getting admission at NLSIU. If I had not gotten through to NLSIU perhaps I would have looked at becoming a doctor.

Give us a brief overview of your life at NLSIU.

I enjoyed all aspects of my time spent at the NLSIU. I can truly say that I met some amazing and very intelligent people, both in terms of students and faculty, many of whom are now lifelong friends. The institution taught me to write and to think independently and shaped my political and ideological beliefs. For the first time I understood what dissent was and how dissent should be respected. It gave me the confidence to believe in myself and truly allowed me to explore the myriad opportunities a young law student has within her reach.

I am not sure whether there is a “NLU culture”. Institutions are often shaped by the people who lead them. I know that there are non NLU universities in India where very interesting courses that are being taught and where the environment is truly conducive for a holistic legal education. Every institution should do all it can to be true to its own idea of why it came to be.

What are the subjects that you took particular interest in, during your law school days?

I was interested in the humanities, particularly in political science. Constitutional law was also very exciting and this led me to look more closely at constitution theory at the London School of Economics where I studied later. I even came back and taught it at NLSIU as a seminar course. At times the subject itself may be appealing and at other times the people who teach a subject can make you very interested in it! I was clear that criminal law was not for me! I was always clear that I would be a disputes lawyer, courts were always more inviting to me. Even today it is difficult to predict how events can unfold in Court, you may be hoping for a dull day, only to be surprised later.

What activities, both academic and non-academic that you engaged in as a law student?

In a fairly small group of students in a university, you can try your hand at most things and I did! I was not very good at sports and even broke my ankle trying to high jump in my first year, but still won a medal. I did debate, quiz and participated in a number of student bar association activities, primarily the legal services clinic. I was also elected as president of the student bar association in my fourth year and I learnt many things about working with people in this role. I was late to the mooting scene and only did so in my fifth year and participated in the Bar Council Moot and the International Maritime Arbitration Moot in Brisbane.

I cannot stress how important it is to be involved in non academic activities at your institutions. These activities allow you to engage with your own peers in different contexts and allow you to build skills which will stand you in good stead in whatever path you choose later. You will learn to engage with the “real world” in many ways.

Even as partners, we do work with Chambers of Commerce and other institutions that interest us or that we are passionate about. I would love for mediation to be used more actively and so I am part of the Centre for Advanced Mediation Practice here in Bangalore.

What kind of internships did you engage in during your student years?

Almost all my internships were connected with dispute resolution as an area of practice. I interned with non governmental organisations who were involved in litigation, like the Environment Support Group and Human Rights Law Network. I later interned with the National Human Rights Commission, with the then Attorney General’s office and finally clerked with a Supreme Court judge. Each internship taught me valuable skills and perspectives. It also gave me the opportunity to meet with some wonderful people. Looking back, each person I worked with taught me something new in terms of working with people, approaching clients or looking at a solution for a problem. I would say choose your internships carefully and work hard. There is someone always watching.

Would you say higher studies are absolutely essential for a career in law?

No, an LLM is not essential for a practising lawyer. However, it does give you perspective on theory and practice and it gave me, a more rounded view of the world. During my time in London, I also did some mini pupillages at a few Barristers’ Chambers and this gave me an insight into the working of the law outside of India.

Which is the ideal time to do an L.L.M?

I would strongly recommend working for a few years. Personally, I appreciated the class room better, made better use of my time as a student both academically and in terms of peer interaction, as I had learned to value my personal time. One also approaches law differently, after one has seen it being practised. You want to solve a problem, and you think out of the box.

What are your areas of specialisation in law?

I have always been a disputes lawyer. Today I am a commercial disputes lawyers, although we do undertake a few pro bono matters which are public law matters. As a disputes lawyer, other than the procedural laws that are essential, one learns to look at various issues in the context of different disputes. It could be a projects/infrastructure dispute or a complex shareholders disputes or an intellectual property dispute, most practising dispute lawyers handle all kinds of disputes. Of course there are specialist IP disputes lawyers and maritime lawyers but most disputes lawyers work across the spectrum.

Every dispute teaches me something new.  My advice to law students would be not to specialise too early. Try and get adequate exposure to as many types of law as possible and then you can choose to specialise. A well rounded lawyer can also be prepared for issues that may arise across practice areas and may not be pigeon holed one way or another.

How were the first few years after your graduation?

I was fortunate enough to not be surprised by law in terms of the substantive aspects of law when I started working. The practise of the law is a completely different thing, one needs to understand client expectations, time management and one needs to learn a whole lot of people skills along with substantive law. A lot of this is not taught at law school and often internships do not offer real responsibility in terms of communication with all parties involved. As you grow senior, you will realise that people skills will stand you in good stead. Often clients tell me, that they chose to work with people they like and not always because they are fantastic lawyers. To be fair, law schools cannot prepare you for the real world practice, that is where the first few years are important. Young lawyers need to understand where and how they can be trained with rigour and opt for those places to work.

Give us some insights on the qualities that Tier-I firms look for in prospective candidates.

I think the focus should be for young lawyers to work with good people and where they can be busy. If you wish to work on diverse areas of law or a particular kind of law, then choose accordingly. Importantly, there should be an opportunity to learn and think. In terms of what does a law firm look for in a prospective candidate, I think any good law firm, even we at Samvad, look for a good work ethic and enthusiasm. There is nothing more refreshing than a young lawyer thinking ahead of his senior and adding value to the case at hand. These are things that can be seen in the context of an internship, so again, young lawyers should make the most of their internships.  I have seen this at Amarchand, at Herbert Smith LLP (as it then was) and here at Samvad.

Tell us about your association with the UN.

(Poornima has worked with the Executive Board of UN women where she has worked on equal pay and other women’s rights issues across the South East Asia region.)

I was part of the Executive Committee at UNIFEM (now UN Women) in Singapore. As Singapore is a high income country, the group worked on issues relating to women across South East Asia, which included raising awareness of the UN Convention for Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW), working with local non governmental organisations on issues of violence against women, be it in Indonesia or Cambodia. We also focused on ensuring that domestic help/maids employed in Singapore would get a day off during their work week and ensuring that payments were made properly. We even worked on a shadow committee report for the UN as part of Singapore’s CEDAW obligations. UN Women was and is a vibrant and active space where I learnt a lot about women’s right in practice and the tough role that one has to play to achieve them.

Tell us about your role at Samvad Partners.

While the partnership at Samvad Partners continues to grow, it is still quite close knit and very collegial. While I am primarily based out of Bangalore, as part of my disputes role, I work across offices be in Chennai, Hyderabad, Mumbai or Delhi to ensure that if there is something that needs to be addressed on the dispute resolution front, it is effectively addressed. The average day includes client work (be it meetings, attending hearings, building and strengthening relationships with clients) as well a fair share of administrative work, which could be resolving HR issues, putting new systems in place or just figuring out if we need revamped stationary. It is exciting to be part of  a relatively young and diverse group of partners and to shape strategy and growth of a legal practice together.

How important are grades, in your opinion?

Call me old fashioned, but I think grades are important. If someone has consistent good grades, it demonstrates a certain level of hard work and knowledge of the law. On the contrary, if there are students with consistent low grades, it would be difficult to explain why that is the case. I believe that Indian legal education has taken a great leap forward in the past decade. There are more people interested in teaching the law and different types of subjects are being taught. The fact that there are so many young people interested in learning the law is itself a pointer that things are moving ahead. I am optimistic about the future.

Tell us a little about the book that you are currently co-editing, on role modelling and mentoring at the workplace.

A lot of us have often wondered about the lack of positive and focused mentoring in the legal profession, be it at the Bar, at law firms or at law schools. This led to a wider quest and the book was shaped by that. Interestingly, it’s not a law book, although my co-editor Shruti Vidyasagar and I are both lawyers. The book is part of a larger series on leadership at the workplace and is to be published by Palgrave McMillan and should hit the stands by next year.

What is your message to our readers?

There is no substitute for hard work and enthusiasm. Do both. Read and keep abreast of everything happening around you. Look beyond the law, too often as lawyers we do not look or make friends outside the law, we must. It keeps us balanced and makes us more relevant. You should want to get out of bed and get to work everyday, else its time to rethink what to do you want to do.

Many thanks for giving me the opportunity.

Savitha Jagadeeshan graduated from NLSIU, Bangalore, in 1997. Previously she’s help position of Partner at K. R. Chawla & Co., and Khaitan & Partners. She is currently Partner-Intellectual Property Chair at Kochhar & Co. Her expertise includes Transaction and Negotiation, Corporate advisory services. She is passionate about cyber crime and security issues. Further areas of expertise are in corporate law, commercial law, India Investment Strategies, which include providing legal advice on investments abroad by Indian companies, and companies seeking to invest in India, cyber laws and intellectual property law.

In this interview we speak to her about:

• Her time at NLSIU
• Her internship experience
• Her role at Kochhar & Co.

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

The legal profession is a particularly demanding profession on the time front as well as work front. This was fine for me as long as I was single. However, post marriage and especially after having my boys, I have tried to work as well as do justice on the personal front, something a lot of us grapple with, especially women. I like to look back and reflect that am glad I took on a full family life, yet refused to give up my profession and have been successful in both. I would encourage young lawyers, especially women, that despite the demands of our profession, there are choices we can make that enable us to have a full career as well as family.

What are your areas of specialization?

I am a general corporate lawyer and have worked on diverse matters, from labour law to infrastructure matters. However, Intellectual Property law and cyber laws are my specialised areas.

How would you describe your time as an undergraduate at NLSIU,Bangalore?

The five years at NLSIU were personally very enriching. Coming from a conservative background, the diversity on the NLSIU campus truly exposed me to an experience that enabled me to interact with people across the board. Another very crucial experience one gets at NLSIU is the immense confidence you derive through the years, that holds you in good stead across the board. The NLS experience enables you to study various streams of law, exposes you to legal studies, that I feel might not be possible in a routine college. Moreover, the curriculum as well as co-curricular activities create greater avenues for us to explore.

Did you participate in co-curricular activities?

Yes, I did. Cultural activities and the inter college fests were definitely fun times, especially the NLS had a cultural week which also was great fun and a wonderful experience. I would encourage all to step up and be part of these activities as much as the moot court experience.

How did you select the internships you got yourself engaged with in your student years?

One of the foremost thoughts I had in mind  was that I wanted a well rounded experience to decide which path I would take upon graduation. Therefore, I chose litigation firms, corporate houses, independent counsel and corporate firms as my learning ladder. I picked big firms and companies as well as small lawyers. The former enabled me to see how the big firm/big company culture worked, and the latter meant I had direct experience on the work I would be required to handle. I would encourage young lawyers to give some thought to  their internships. Especially because they have a lot more opportunities we did.

Could you please give our readers some advice regarding internships?

I think it’s important to choose diverse paths to understand what we would like to do; the same is in case of internships. I do recommend varied internships for those who are confused. However, if you have decided the city you want to work with and it is a firm/corporate house/NGO, choose those only throughout the years of internship. However I would encourage many to definitely do internships with lawyers and litigation firms, because one of the cornerstones of being a good lawyer is that you should know the procedural aspects of law. In fact, I feel that lawyers should get some litigation experience in their career as it’s a lot easier to identify issues with their corporate work before hand. Now many firms have internships programs, therefore apply early. Choose firms, according to your growth trajectory, speak to your peers, do research on the firms that do provide good, well rounded internships, and of course, as already said, apply early.

What would you like to say about the initial years as a corporate lawyer?

Loved it. My first experience was with Mulla and Mulla, Craigie Blunt and Caroe and we had to do both litigation and corporate. It was not some air conditioned office, but we all sat in a room, but we had plenty of work, so plenty to do. It was intense, and there was no excuse of how many hours were spent in court, we still had to complete our corporate work and send out reporting letters the same day of the matter.

Would you please enlighten the readers about how you came to choose your fields of specialization and suggest them the proper time to do so?

This is an era of specialisation and is crucial to one’s growth path. I think it is imperative that through the years as you are dabbling in varied aspects of law, you also look into reading into various specialisations. Depending upon the curriculum if you are exposed to specialisation in courses in the fourth and fifth year, you choose the electives not purely based on interest, but its applicability in the outside world. I would also recommend choosing specialised firms, if you are looking at being specialised. Even though many of us might know what we want, I would recommend experimenting with these courses before you earmark a singular one, so  you do not regret the decisions later on. I would also speak to specialised lawyers to get an insight into the area, choose internships and write articles, this enables and exposes us to the idea, if our interest in these specialised areas is retained. For those unsure, read, research, speak to others. This will enable to get the dialogue going with us on what we would like to do.

Did you have any mentor or inspirational figures along your eventful journey?

Not really, although, I had excellent bosses who have played crucial roles in moulding me as a lawyer. From my first boss I learnt meticulousness and listening to detail. From my second boss I learnt the importance of working hard and reaching deadlines at all cost and identifying what sets you apart from others. My present stint brought out the business person in me and I realised presentation and branding is equally important, and most importantly your clientele is worked on your work skills and people skills.

When was the time you decided to pursue an LLM?

This was many years into my profession and the need to pursue the LLM was mainly because I wanted to pursue my Ph.d in India, where the LLM is a  requirement. However, I think there are two crucial junctures you can pursue your LLM; straight from law school (I would recommend doing it in UK and USA) or few years down the line, but only if it adds value to your specialisation.

How would you describe your experience as a partner in a Tier-I company like K.R. Chawla and Co.?

It was truly a learning experience for me. I was exposed to varied matters especially regulatory matters. Mr. Harvansh Chawla was a wonderful person to work for, as he exposed me to all kinds of work, gave me a free hand on how I executed the work and also encouraged me from all fronts. I think the work that I did here was some of the best in my career and it was here that I also learnt to interact with clients first hand. It was also this experience that enabled me to be an open colleague. By that I mean, for all my colleagues I work with, I give them a free hand on how they want to execute the work, including client interactions. I am but a stickler for timelines and feel that all work should be turned around fast irrespective of client deadlines.

What is your advice to young aspiring interns about the Tier-1 firms?

Learn, learn, learn. Some internships might be boring. However, if you take an initiative, you will find that many a firm will be willing to be expose you to their daily work and will use you. Don’t take your internships for granted. Work hard at the work you are given, even if research, because there is a chance you will be offered a position there and you might get noticed. Being a lawyer is not just about knowing the law, but also bringing out the confidence in your client. Never fib, if you do not know something check it up and then advice. Research is an imperative part of your learning curve. Write articles and be exposed to changes in the areas of law. And last but not the least, it is imperative that through the years you study the trends in the profession, and your choices are marked by this as your future will be shaped out to be due to these choices.

Did you ever imagine that you would become Partner some day?

Yes, I knew from the very beginning that I would be part of the law firm culture and I had already envisaged that being a partner was definitely going to be on my bucket list. I think its an aspiration we should all keep, to reach the top, that keeps the adrenaline rushing, and we do not get bored of our profession. Pick challenges in whatever you do, and do not rest with one.

Could you tell us what a typical work day entails for you?

Well, I do a lot of my business meetings in the first half of the day. We have administrative decisions to be taken which we do through the day.  Most of my day goes in conference calls, meetings and tackling work. My time is divided between intellectual property and corporate queries. I also do a fair bit of business development for the firm and hence, meeting and sitting on committees also takes some time.

How do you stay updated on the latest legal developments?

I read a lot of judgments and articles. Reading legal books are more when doing opinions. However, I do make it a policy to subscribe to various legal updates that come to me. Recently, with technology, legal Whatsapp groups are in, and this exposes are fairly quickly to the latest law developments.

Lastly, what would be your tips to aspiring lawyers?

1. Work hard.
2. Take initiative.
3. Do court work, you will see a definite difference in your attitude as a lawyer.
4. Read.
5. Never say no to any kind of work, more the experience the better the lawyer you will be.
6. Never say no to a client, even if it is a small matter, take it up and execute it with equal gusto as a big matter, you are in the business of building relationships so every bit counts.
7. If you are thinking of a company job/NGOs your organisation comes first, never substitute the hard work for the company for anything else. Integrity will always see you a long way.

Ashish Chandra graduated in law from Delhi University, batch of 2001. His area of expertise includes eCommerce, mobile payment, telecom, media and technology. Ashish is a qualified Company Secretary and a law graduate from Delhi University. Ashish holds specialized diploma in Cyber (Information Technology) Laws from Indian Law Institute, Delhi and a diploma in Intellectual Property Laws from National Law School, Bangalore.

In this interview we speak to him about:

• Being a Company Secretary
• His experience in the E-commerce sector
• His role at Snapdeal

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

Legal buddy for millennials and a perpetual student of law.

What motivated you to pursue law?

Becoming a lawyer was not my career goal during high school. Most of my family members are from medical or engineering backgrounds. Being average in science, I decided to pursue commerce. I started my professional education through the Company Secretary course and thereafter law was the obvious choice. While I was graduating as lawyer in 2000, I saw a huge opportunity in technology and internet related laws and I complemented my basic law education with further specialization in technology, internet and IP laws.

Tell us a little about your days in law school.

I graduated from Law Centre II at Delhi University’s South Campus while undergoing my CS internship and thereafter, a day job. For me, studying law was more practical than academic as I was working in a corporate, so I could clearly relate legal principles into real corporate and personal life. Through this I developed a skill which I term it as LAWBI i.e. Legal Acumen With Business Intelligence. Studying law was also detoxing after a day long hard work.

What are your areas of specialisation, and when/how did you go about choosing these?

I was graduating as a lawyer and a company secretary in 2007 and took the decision to build my career in corporate, technology, internet and IP laws. The professional journey thereafter has been satisfying. The choice you make should provide a combination of both professional and financial satisfaction. The other important aspect is to have an open mind and ability to change choices depending upon the business and personal circumstances.

How were the first few years after your graduation?

I have always been an in-house counsel. I saw implementation of law in business and commerce during my law school days. Law school did strengthen my academic roots, but it’s the day-to-day grind and time-to-time taking of risk that provided me the ability to practise law more effectively and meaningfully. This also prepared me to take up critical business roles in my most recent stint.

What kind of internships did you undertake during your student years?

I was interning in my company secretary course during my law school days. I would advise students and freshers to choose a place that provides ability to put law into real-life practice, and gives you opportunity to dirty your hands. Internship is the best period to learn the basics of working smart.

When did you decide to complete the Company Secretary course and when did you clear the qualification examinations?

I started my company secretary course right after my commerce graduation at Delhi University. I cleared all my CS examination within two years after my commerce graduation. I started my law graduation after completion of CS exams. I did not want to sail in two boats and wanted to focus on one thing at a time, and also enjoy the life.

What are the benefits that come with combining a CS qualification with an LL.B?

A combination of CS and LL.B. gives you better understanding and appreciation of corporate and commercial laws. It benefits in all aspects of profession for eg: as an in-house counsel, working for a corporate law firm, or corporate litigation and white collar crime law.

Is it cumbersome to complete both side by side?

I don’t think so as both complement each other.

From your vast experience in the corporate sector, would you recommend this environment for fresh graduates?

(Ashish has worked with several corporate giants such as eBay India and Reliance Industries Ltd. in the past, before joining Snapdeal.)

Well, it’s not whether you start your career in a corporate or you start your career in a law firm or under an independent lawyer. The most important part is what work you do and with whom during the initial part of your career. You need to work at a place which is growing very fast, and where there are more things to do than there are people to do them. During the initial years, you should in-fact do some part of paralegal work including learn the art of properly stapling the papers, quickly taking photo-copies, learning fast typing and taking quick notes.

What does a regular working day look like for you, as Group General Counsel & Head of Taxation of Snapdeal.com?

When I was the Group GC and Head of Tax, most part of my day used to go in managing my team (internal and external counsels), my peers and my CXOs. Managing people and getting everyone aligned for a common goal in a reasonably safe and stable legal and regulatory environment is the key aspect of any GC. As a GC, you need to evangelize your company’s business, its opportunities and challenges to the external world including industry bodies, government organizations and law enforcement.

If given an opportunity, what would you do differently in your career journey up to this point?

I regret not working under a good litigator during the early stage of my career. As a rounded lawyer (even in-house), your job is not completed unless you know court processes and how your contracts and advises be argued before a judge or decided by a judge. Never stop updating yourself in your subject matter, always take a global perspective in your legal research, be a patient listener (adopt 80:20 rule i.e. 80% time in listening and 20% time in relevant speaking), and a great orator with good voice modulation and body gestures.

Is there any other suggestion you would like to give to our budding lawyers?

There cannot be a better time to be a lawyer. Analyse your areas of interests and strength, and give your 100%. Lastly, give back to society in whatever form whether time, knowledge, wisdom o wealth. Most importantly, laugh out loud on lawyers’ jokes!

Yamini graduated from the Faculty of Law, University of Delhi and cleared the AIBE in 2012. Prior to that, she held a degree in Sociology from Jesus & Mary College, University of Delhi in 2008. Having a keen interest in IPR and litigation, she started her legal career at Anand & Anand and later moved on to work at Global Legal Associates and Lall Lahiri & Salhotra. She then moved to Aquis Search as a Legal and Compliance Recruitment Consultant. 

In this interview we speak to her about:

• Her time in Delhi University
• Being a legal recruiter
• Her experience in IPR

Tell us more about your law school days at Delhi University.

I read law from the University of Delhi while working at S&P Global, and hence, had to juggle between multiple responsibilities during my day. This was not only challenging but very enriching as well since it taught me how to multitask and excel towards something I always aspired to become. The most interesting part of my law school days was the fact that my class had individuals aged between 21 and 60 years and came from diverse professional backgrounds such as civil services, journalism, finance, etc.

The course was structured in a way that instead of theory, it focused on discussions around case studies. This was one of the differentiating factors that made the classes exciting and thought provoking instead of being mundane and boring. The moot sessions provided practice in developing relative arguments and brought together viewpoints from different individuals, which was crucial for a beginner like me.

Who was your mentor who motivated you all along the way?

My grandfather who was a civil servant had a keen interest in law. During my initial years, he always motivated me to study the subject. I come from a family where girls are encouraged to venture into professions of their choice and that has always kept me going. I have had my share of failures and each of them has taught me to work harder and be more focused towards my goal.

Tell us more about the nature of work you had undertaken as a Research Associate at S&P Capital IQ.

S&P Global is one of the top most financial data providers, which through its technology and people turns raw data into actionable insights. During my stint there, I was responsible for extensive research and compiling of data related to professionals and linking them to the relevant data fields to ensure a robust and enhanced database. One year into the role, I also took up the responsibility of developing training plans and mentoring the new employees to ensure their smooth transition in the company. My core responsibilities also included quality checks to ensure correct representation of data on the platform and conducting feedback sessions with the team members to resolve guideline related disputes and queries.

When and Why did you decide to join Anand and Anand? 

Since I had a keen interest in IP, Anand and Anand was an obvious choice.  I spoke to my IP professor, who had suggested that I apply to Anand and Anand. Once I had done my research and had a general sense of the firm, it was all a matter of applying and interviewing with the firm. Luckily, Mr. Safir Anand liked my previous experience of research at S&P Capital IQ and took me in.

Being the biggest IP firm in the country, it provided me with an opportunity to work on some cutting-edge matters for high profile clients. My work primarily included IP prosecution and advertising law. Additionally, I was involved in writing various articles for the firm.

What do leading firms that specialize in IPR such as Anand and Anand look for in prospective candidates for internships, retainerships or recruitment?

The firm invests a lot of time in choosing the right candidate. They look for candidates who will be with them for long term. Based on my experience at the firm, they take into consideration the following factors (not an exhaustive list)-

1. A strong educational background
2. Ability to work hard
3. Team player
4. Good communication skills
5. Strong on technical knowledge
6. Being creative as well is not a bad idea at all

Tell us more about your experience with Global Legal Associates and Lall Lahiri and Salhotra. 

While Anand and Anand was a great place to learn, your role tends to get highly specific and specialized. I personally felt that it was too early for me to specialize in one part of IP.  I moved on to joining Global Legal Associates as part of their Dispute Resolution team.  At GLA, I worked under the able guidance of Mr. Ravinder Narain and Mr. Rajan Narain. I represented the firm’s clients across fora, which involved appearing and arguing matters before Courts and Tribunals, research, drafting and drawing up pleadings, submissions, notices, briefing and assisting Senior Counsel and research.

At LLS, I had the pleasure of working on some ground breaking IP work under the guidance of Mrs. Anuradha Salhotra and sharpened my skills in cease and desist notices, responses and litigation.

Why did you choose to venture out to the business side of law and take up a job with Aquis Search? 

Having such diversity in my profile, I feel I found my niche in the legal recruitment business. Aquis happened, when I met Rishabh Chopra-Head of India at Aquis Search. Rishabh inspired me to join Aquis and then I knew I wanted to be a part of Aquis Search’s journey.

Aquis Search is a premier international corporate governance executive search firm headquartered in Hong Kong and having offices in Beijing, Delhi, Hong Kong, London, Mumbai, Shanghai, Singapore and Taipei. At Aquis, I work closely with law firms and corporations in India and the Middle-East to fulfill their legal and compliance recruitment needs and providing them with quality candidates at junior and mid level.  I also support the India team on senior level searches.

Any suggestion you would like to give to our budding lawyers?

You should have the right kind of attitude towards the legal profession. It’s always advisable to have novelty and be innovative to develop a personality of a true legal professional. One should be determined, patient and remember that there is no alternative to hard work. You should never be disappointed, as failure is an integral key to success. All the best!

Saranya Gopinath graduated from Symbiosis Law School in 2011. Since then, she has been associated with Goldman Sachs India, Juris Corp, eGovernments Foundation, Novopay Solutions, and Khosla Labs. She is currently the executive director of a small not-for-profit organisation called Step Up for India, as well as the General Counsel for Khosla Labs and the incubated projects.

In this interview we speak to her about:

• Studying at Symbiosis
• Being General Counsel at Khosla
• Working at Goldman Sachs

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

A first generation lawyer who has had wonderful learning opportunities and the chance to take advantage of each of them.

What motivated you to opt for legal studies after school?

My tryst with legal studies was a wonderful chance. Through 12th grade, I realised that I didn’t find myself with the requisite passion to pursue engineering. At around the same time, I started paying more attention to the Indian political and administrative systems and their impact. Having done my entire schooling in Dubai, the exploration was one which captured my thought process.  Several meetings and conversations later I found myself intrigued by the Indian Administrative Services. That was actually the plan, law was supposed to be the effective first step towards joining the IAS. My schooling experience across co-curricular and leadership roles provided fodder to that idea. But then I got introduced to corporate law, and here we are today!

Having graduated from Symbiosis, Pune, did you ever feel that there is a divide between NLU and Non-NLU students?

There is no denying that the NLU brand does help in getting your foot through the door, be it internships or your first job. But at the workplace, nobody has the time to find your university pedigree before reviewing your work. Just as any industry, your career trajectory is determined by how much you bring to the table when you are there. It becomes your only calling card.

My two cents to non-NLU students: play the underdog card. Just work twice as hard.

How important are grades, in your opinion?

Grades are undeniably important while getting your internships. They also hold substantial weight while applying for further studies. They show someone how you value legal studies and how well you can apply yourself.  But there is an inherent disconnect in the question. Targeting the big bucks cannot possibly be the goal when you are writing your exams.

As far as the workplace is concerned, they don’t ask you for your grades when you are gearing up for a negotiation. What does affect the chance of earning the big bucks is what you learn. The industry is cognizant of the fact that freshers may not know a lot of practicalities and in some cases, some subjects aren’t even taught in all law schools, such as securities law.  But they do expect you to have your basics in order. There is no replacement nor excuse for that. Any notion that one can pass by without adequately understanding and appreciating the law is dispelled rather quickly, big bucks being a far cry from there.

What subjects did you take particular interest in during your law school days?

Like a lot of law students, in the initial years I found IPR extremely interesting and my first few internships were spent trying to pursue that. But during later years I found love in constitutional law and corporate law. While my curiosity in the former found some outlet in the form of moots and other research, I found that my curiosity in the latter could only be satiated by internships. At my internships- I would try to chase down the partners who worked in areas I liked and asked them for work. During my first internship at Juris Corp. the takeover code had just got a re-haul and was released.  I had the opportunity to work on an analysis of the changes and that deepened my interest in corporate law, a feature which informed my future decisions to join Juris Corp as well as Khosla Labs.

What were the activities, academic or otherwise, that you undertook in your law school days which in your opinion have shaped you and your career?

Symbiosis provided a great atmosphere where you could pursue a wide variety of interests that tickled your fancy, be it curricular or co-curricular. I explored theater and paper presentations but spent a majority of my time in mooting. The mooting experience allowed me to fortify my basics and develop the ability to think about every topic laterally, a skill that helps me immensely in my current role. Modern day legal challenges involve applying existing legal principles to new concepts in fields such as finance and technology. The skills learnt in mooting help address these challenges with a strong foundation.

Who was your mentor, or main source of inspiration who motivated you all along the way?

While I have not had one mentor, so to speak, I’ve been fortunate to have had a whole bunch of great influences. My parents and my brother have influenced my work ethic and my brother, in particular, encouraged a sense of curiosity. But apart from my family and of course my friends in law school, I have had great seniors and bosses who always encouraged me and pushed me beyond my comfort zone. One memory that stands out is when Mr. Jayesh was working personally on a transaction and we were drafting into the early hours of the morning. At about 3 AM, I disagreed with him about the way a certain clause needs to be drafted. Considering I was a second year associate, he could have told me that we could discuss it in detail later. But instead, at 3 AM, he spent time explaining the concept to the point where he was convinced that I was convinced. That experience really made me understand how the profession is not just about knocking out documents. Yet, that was just one of the many experiences in Juris Corp. Suprio Bose, Sonali Sharma, Veena Sivaramakrishnan and Hoshedar Wadia have each encouraged me to continue asking questions. And great colleagues like Bharat Budholia and Manali Gogate have kept the learning spark alive. At Khosla Labs, Srikanth Nadhamuni has lead by example in showing what inclusive leadership looks like.

What kind of internships did you engage in during your student years which you feel were invaluable to you in reaching your current position?

Through my career, I have made a calculated decision to work with mid  to small sized firms to get more experience. It helped me work on diverse practice areas and take substantial responsibility early on, a strategy which helped me take on my current role without too much trepidation. My engagements with Crawford Bayley and a litigation lawyer in Rajahmundry, Andhra Pradesh informed my decisions in the way I want to approach my practice and formed my principles in the workplace early on.

What are your areas of practice?

As general counsel in an innovation lab, my practice areas on a daily basis range from general corporate to intellectual property to labour law. Early exposure to different fields has helped me respond to the different challenges of the job. If after a few internships you know exactly which field of law you want to pursue- that’s great. But there is no virtue to it if it stops you from trying out different experiences. I think its perfectly fine to take your time in the workplace to decide the field. In my opinion, working full time and the responsibilities you take on cannot adequately compare to an internship, in influencing the career path you want to chisel out.

Tell us about your experience as a secondee at Goldman Sachs India Finance Private Limited.

Working with Goldman Sachs was a brilliant experience. I was fortunate enough to be seconded from Juris Corp and work with the VP of Legal, India as a green first year associate. Being exposed to the inner workings of a financial organisation such as Goldman Sachs was a great reality check. My learnings then and the responsibilities I was working on really influenced the manner in which I view transactions and the import I gave to understanding the practical nature of our work. It helped me understand the requirements of future clients and how best to assist them.

Tell us more about your current job profile at Khosla Labs.

In house practice is very different from firm practice, especially in a start up. Your colleagues need solutions and they need it fast. The impetus is on practicality rather than the eloquence of the advice. My aim has been to understand the different areas of operation as well as possible. Most often, the solution is a combination of legal and operational answers. As a result, my day largely involves meetings and having in depth discussions with various stakeholders. Drafting work often starts at about six in the evening into the night, with the idea being to wrap up in time for discussions and reviews the next morning.

Between Bangalore and Mumbai, which work environment more is conducive to pursue law in?

Mumbai is my first love. The city matches the enthusiastic pace of someone in their first job and teaches you the value of hard work. But to be fair, my experience doesn’t provide an apples to apples comparison because across the two cities. I’ve also moved from law firm to in house practice. As a result, my Bangalore experience has more highlights of diversity, in terms of professions and practices and as a result has introduced me to various thought processes.

Is there any other suggestion you would like to give to our budding lawyers?

Remain curious. Keep reading and keep asking questions. Not just in the field of law. Cultivate an interest in reading topics from different fields- economics, current affairs, technology, whatever intrigues you. If you get bored of learning, you run the risk of falling short of your potential.

Mritunjay Kumar Tiwary graduated in law from D.E.S. Law College, Fergusson Campus, Pune University, in 2009. After successful stints with the New Delhi Law Offices and Indus Legal, he ventured into independent practice. In 2013 he co-founded AGM Partners, a  firm that advises various corporate clients on issues relating to infrastructure, non-banking, employment, labour and compliances, etc., including all litigation cases. He later branched out of AGM Partners to establish himself as an independent legal practitioner.

In this interview we speak to him about:

• Starting his own firm
• His experience in litigation
• Being an independent practitioner

How would you like to introduce yourself to our readers?

I am a third generation lawyer. I was born into a family of lawyers in Jamshedpur, Jharkhand, the first planned industrial city of India. I did my schooling from Loyola School, Jamshedpur. My grandfather and father are lawyers based out of Jamshedpur. My family has an established practice in Jamshedpur, especially my grandfather who has been practicing for almost five decades now, and is considered the most reputed lawyer for labour law disputes and compliances in and around Jamshedpur. My grandfather and father have clients ranging from companies, hospitals, schools, restaurants, and more. Being born into a family of lawyers, I was attracted to the uniform and hustle-bustle of the court premises from an early age. My family not only wholeheartedly supported me when I decided to study law but has been a major driving force in encouraging me to practice litigation in this competitive world, when the easier choice was to take up a job. The faith my family reposes on me motivated me to set base in Delhi to build my own identity in the legal field and not opting for easy and comfortable life back in Jamshedpur.

Give us a brief overview of your life at law college.

After finishing my school, I decided to purse law under the five years B.S.L. LL.B. program. My grandfather first wanted me to pursue graduation from the University of Delhi and then pursue a three year law course from Campus Law Centre, University of Delhi. He did not want me to rush into the decision of pursuing law as career, considering the hardships and challenges on this path. But I could manage to convince my grandfather and thereafter, he not only supported my decision but has always been there as a guiding force along with my father.

I pursued law from D.E.S. Law College, Fergusson Campus, Pune University. My college was part of the same society as that of the esteemed and renowned Fergusson College and shared the same campus. I was part of the first batch of the college in 2004, which was working towards becoming one of the leading law colleges in the country and also gave me an opportunity to grow with it all throughout my five years. The law college itself being in the initial years of its formation provided more opportunities for individual development. I took an active part in college activities, and was a key member of the Placement Committee. Being the first batch, we had to work hard to secure placements for ourselves. In the year 2009, the world was passing through the phase of recession and there were more pink-slips than job offers. I firmly believe I have blessings of the Almighty and I was the first student from my college to secure placement in a law firm M/s. New Delhi Law Offices (NDLO) at New Delhi. NDLO is a full-service law firm being an offshoot of JB Dadachanji formed in the year 1992, wherein I handled a variety of litigation and advisory matters. NDLO had offered me an opportunity to interface with several clients, domestic and international which helped me to better my legal and commercial understanding.

How much of a role do GPAs play in shaping one’s career path?

Personally, I was a student who never studied throughout the semester or had an inclination to work very hard to get good grades. My intention was to work towards getting decent grades for which I studied few days before the semester exams and the result was that I passed my law from the University of Pune with a First Class Degree. University of Pune followed the orthodox way of correcting the papers, wherein it got difficult for students to pass, unlike the deemed universities. And in such a space, I was blessed to secure First Class for the reason that I never allowed pressure of securing good grades affect me.

I believe your grades don’t define you, but they do still matter in shaping one’s career. This is something every student must remember. In the same breath, I also say that by caring too much about grades, most students are missing the point of education. We should not forget that the idea of education is to not just obtain good grades but strive for overall development, especially in the field of law. I think education is for self-improvement and to figure out a place in the world. With this in mind, I say that grades are a necessary part of the education system but they aren’t necessary part of the strengths of becoming a good lawyer. Forget the pressures of grades and just try to become a hard-working lawyer and everything shall follow.

What kind of internships did you engage in during your student years?

Internships provide an opportunity for students to increase their knowledge of substantive areas of law and gain exposure to the real work environment. Internship is a tool which aids in deciding one’s career path. During my college days, I never focused on one branch of law, I tried to experience everything, so as to find my self in an able position to decide my future. 

I did six internships during my college days, which includes interning with Tier I and Tier II law firms, independent legal practitioners, and corporate,  for a holistic experience. I started interning with my grandfather, Advocate K. M. Tiwary, Jamshedpur on labour matters, which gave me a first-hand experience about the functioning of lower courts and how trials are conducted. It is important for every law student aspiring to be a litigation counsel to undergo the wriggle of the trial court and its working during the initial years. My decision to intern with my grandfather was quite rewarding. He invested a lot of time in me to explain the functioning of the courts, the job of a lawyer, etc. This immensely helped me to gain confidence to appear in a courtroom and gave a detailed insight into the litigation world, while I was still a law student. Thereafter, I interned at Dua Associates, New Delhi with the Arbitration and Litigation Team, Amarchand Mangaldas, New Delhi on IPR matters, Mulla & Mulla & Craigie Blunt & Caroe, Mumbai, on litigation matters. To gain corporate experience I interned in the legal division of Reliance Retail Ltd., Mumbai, and with in-house legal team of Standard Chartered Bank, Mumbai. Having gained such varied experience helped me decide my choice of career, i.e. litigation, non-litigation or corporate. Therefore, internships offer opportunity to experience different spheres of law and in my case I happily chose litigation and advisory.

What are your areas of specialisation, and when/how did you go about choosing these?

I would like to say that I am a student of law practising in the areas of my interest. And I found my share of interest during my internships in law college in the field of arbitration and litigation. Law is such a vast field that it’s difficult for me to say what I specialise in.

Over the years, I have gained the experience of representing a large number of Indian and multinational clients in complex and intricate arbitration cases, as also before courts at all levels in India for enforcement of awards/decrees. Some of the major arbitration matters I have handled relate to international procurement contracts, cross-country gas-pipeline laying contracts, supply and procurement of gas exploration and loading equipment, construction of airports and highways in India, building and construction laws, apart from a wide range of other commercial contracts. I have also been representing clients and advising them on litigation matters in relation to civil and commercial litigation, banking, non-banking, employment, labour and compliances, construction and real estate related matters, probate and property rights, in addition to matters of intellectual property rights. With my own experience, I can say that litigation offers unparalleled thrills, the adrenaline rush that accompanies addressing a courtroom packed with audience, the power to shape the outcome of disputes, there is no feeling better than this.

Right after law school and clearing the bar examination, every student is all set to get started on their legal career. Until now, every student has more of a theoretical knowledge of the working of the legal system. Law school along with internships teaches every student to think like a lawyer, but to gain practical experience and decide on your options, you need to analyse your priorities. Do you want to work that pays more or something that is of your interest even when it offers lower compensation? Are you a workaholic or do you seek to maintain a work-life balance? Only after you analyse your priorities you will be able to make the most of this noble profession.

However, my advice to every fresher would be, while there is no bar to begin practice (litigation or non-litigation) entirely on your own, the customary route is to work under an established advocate or a law firm. The nature of work would certainly depend on the place you choose to begin your career. I would suggest every fresher to find an advocate / law firm who is able to invest time in you and supervise and guide you through in your initial days of practice. This is the most important aspect of becoming a lawyer.

Finally, learning clerical work is also important for every fresher, especially for litigation. One should learn the art of maintaining the case diary, to see whether office files are in order, keep a close eye on how the filings in the courts are done, etc. So never take it to be menial work, as it holds an important place in a lawyer’s professional sphere.

Would you say law school prepared you for the real world practice of law? 

Your career is probably nothing like your days in law school. Theoretical knowledge of law schools is distinct from the practical world of law. After stepping out of law school, my life had changed. I had to put in more work hours than the others who were already in the profession. The art of drafting, handling a matter independently, advising clients, interpreting statutes, etc. is learnt through years of practice after putting a lot of hard work. Frankly speaking, we cannot be taught how to be a lawyer in a college and the same is attained through years of efforts and hard-work.

My first stint at NDLO had given a good start to my career with a great learning experience. After leaving NDLO in November 2010, I joined Indus Legal, founded by a former partner of Dua Associates, Mr. Navin Kumar. With the guidance of my senior and assistance of an able support team, I was able to render legal services to various clients of the firm on a vast and varied legal framework. I worked in the areas of civil, commercial, and arbitration laws in the High Court at Delhi, Punjab and Haryana, Mumbai, etc., apart from conducting cases before domestic Arbitral Tribunals, the National Commission and other Tribunals and forums in and outside Delhi. In July 2013, I established my own law firm by the name AGM Partners along with two other partners. The firm progressed well and provided a vital platform to develop a commendable face value in the courts as also with various clients of repute. Litigation and arbitration being the major areas of practice, one had the opportunity to gain considerably in experience and stature. Towards the middle of the year 2016, I branched out of AGM Partners and started working as an independent legal practitioner. I still continue to provide quality legal services to my clients in various disciplines of litigation and arbitration practice. I have also been acting as of-counsel for various law firms.

What are the challenges that one needs to prepare himself/herself for when they step out of the comfort of a law school and into the real working world?

The field of law today is full of challenges and opportunities. The foremost thing to remember especially for the lawyers trying to make a mark on the litigation side is that there will be very less money in the initial days of work. Fat pay cheques and perks are unheard of unless you are working in Tier I Law Firms. Always keep in mind throughout your initial years, that you are here to learn work and even if you are not paid well and get to do fancy work, take it to be be as tuition fees for learning art and skills to become a lawyer.

During your developmental years as a lawyer, did you have any mentor(s)?

I am blessed to be born in a family of lawyers, because I am part of this esteemed fraternity today just because of them. My grandfather Mr. Kapil Muni Tiwary, an Advocate having experience of almost five decades has been a great source of inspiration to me. If I inculcate even ten percent of his hard-work, daily routine and discipline, which he practices even at the age of 87 years, I shall be doing wonderfully as a lawyer. My father, Mr. Anil Kumar Tiwary’s hard work and his sincerity towards his work has been a guiding factor in my work life too. My father is one of the great personalities in the legal field in Jamshedpur who provides free legal aid in today’s world. My father is Secretary of his Bar Association for last eight years because of his good work in the legal fraternity. My grandfather and father have dealt with varied subject matters handling a plethora of cases throughout their career. I derive my confidence, professional ethics, strength and legal acumen from them and my family. Also, my mother’s role in my life has been of great importance and she has always supported my decisions.

You were a Senior Associate at a reputed firm, Indus Legal. Why then did you decide to take a leap of faith and establish your own firm?  

This question reminds me of my conversation with my father in April 2013. He had also asked me why I wanted to step down from a comfortable position to start my own firm? It made me think twice, when something like this came from my father who has made a mark for himself in Jamshedpur as an independent legal practitioner. But I had immediately realized he was being a father that on how would I cope up professionally in such a city when I go independent, where I had no backing at all and he knew what pain an independent lawyer has to go through.

Thrill of being independent and working on your own gave me the courage to move out and start my own firm. The idea to start my own firm popped up during conversation with my friends, who also later on became my partners in the firm. I personally always wanted independent practice and even when I was working under someone. After four years of practice with the firm under the guidance of my seniors, I decided to open my own law firm by the name AGM Partners along with two other partners. AGM Partners was always special to me. We had established a decent number of clients who had kept all of us in AGM partners, very busy with the work. The thrill of working on your own in unparalleled.

What then motivated you to leave your position at the firm and take up independent practice?

It would not be called motivation, rather circumstances made me decide to part ways with my partners and the firm and take up solo practice. There was a huge imbalance among the roles headed by each Partner, to which I accommodated for two and half years so that the firm’s progress is not interfered with. However, I realized this is not going to change and the disparity in the execution of every Partner’s roles caused a lot of frustration deep within. Towards May 2016, I branched out of AGM Partners and started working as an Independent Legal Practitioner providing quality legal services to all my clients in various disciplines of litigation and arbitration practice. Through what I have experienced I can share with all of you that if you desire to operate a law firm in partnership module, remember to have like minded people on board, otherwise life gets miserable.

Where do you see yourself ten years from now? What are the avenues that your line of practice opens up for one?

I never make long term goals. I believe in achieving my set goals at every short interval to keep my enthusiasm alive. As far as my life after ten years is concerned, I would like to see myself working in the same way on a larger scale and always keep getting better as a lawyer. Litigation has a slow growth but one who is sincere and keeps putting in hard work along with patience will grow one day.

What is your message to our readers?

Remember, your initial years of work experience will decide the entire course of your legal career. In these initial years, you can grow your skills, enhance your network and build your future. Whatever you choose, make sure you give it your best. Patience, along with continuous hard work is the key to success in this profession. Here is wishing everyone the very best for a great experience ahead.